Open-Source / Linux Letdowns For 2018

[birdie]

1. I've never claimed that - you've mistaken me for someone else. Most Linux users think that's very important but I just don't care. What I really care about is a bugs-free stable supported OS which is suitable for running proprietary software for great many years. Linux (on the desktop) is anything but such an OS. RHEL comes close but it's not suitable for the desktop since it contains a lot of stale software and a very old kernel as well which supports only the hardware which is endorsed by RedHat.

2. I don't claim that. That's what StatCounter, NetMarketShare and other traffic analyzers report and I've got zero reasons not to trust them because we have no other reliable instruments of measuring the market share of various operating systems. MacOS also doesn't boast a big market share but it's of a known quality and has a whole lot of proprietary software and is generally considered a mature, stable, well-supported OS. Oh, and software suspend and power saving mode work perfectly in it.

3. ChromeOS is (currently) a laptop only OS which requires a permanent good Internet connection to be usable and also it requires that I buy new hardware which is simply not an option for me since I already have a decent laptop and a desktop PC. Also ChromeOS doesn't contain a lot of software that I need. And also by the 1st world standards I'm fucking poor and broke, so for my entire life I've owned just a single laptop and I upgrade my desktop PC as rarely as humanly possible.


Speaking of what I'm running: on my laptop I've got Fedora 29 and on my desktop I dual boot Windows 7(used only for gaming, e.g. Steam and UPlay) and again Fedora 29.

Now, am I content with Linux? Hell, no. Every DE that I touch contains dozens of bugs (Fedora has the freshest software available, so in theory it must have the least amount of bugs). In the past I wasted my time filing bug reports but maybe a year or two ago I mostly gave up on that seeing that most developers don't give a damn about your bug reports and they are working only on the things they find interesting. Just for fun I recently decided to tell KDE developers that maybe Plasma is not particularly good for the desktop. Their response was that I needed to file seven separate bug reports and they added that most likely they wouldn't have time to fix any of them, IOW they let me know that my attempts would be futile. OK, DEs are DEs and they aren't that critical as generally you can find workarounds and somehow solve your issues. Now what's really interesting is that when I bought my laptop over 3,5 years ago I filed four bugs reports against the Linux kernel. Funnily, three of them are still reproduceable as for Linux 4.20 and obviously not fixed. Not a single comment from the respective Linux maintainers. Linux used to be a toy and remains a toy save for RHEL but RHEL is not a desktop distro and it's not really suitable for that role.

I don't know why I'm writing all of this because I'm sure as hell you will find excuses to everything that's going on and say BS like, "it's free" and "it doesn't spy on you" and I will try counter this BS with the fact that I couldn't care less about spying since you can disable most if not all of it and the fact that Windows OEM license costs less than $50, so it's quite affordable even for the poorest nations on Earth but you will find a dozen more reasons why Windows is ostensibly bad and Linux is ostensibly good the way it is and I'm simply tired of this shit and I just don't care any longer.

What I insist on is that on Phoronix most users claim that Linux is perfect against all the evidence to the contrary (or it has issues but they have nothing to do with Linux) and the same applies to various pro-Windows websites like Neowin however recently I've started noticing that more and more people remove scales from their eyes and start being rational and logical and they start to realize that maybe their emperor doesn't wear clothes but for some reasons this trend has largely gone unnoticed on Phoronix.com

[blackiwid]

What I insist on is that on Phoronix most users claim that Linux is perfect against all the evidence to the contrary (or it has issues but they have nothing to do with Linux) and the same applies to various pro-Windows websites like Neowin however recently I've started noticing that more and more people remove scales from their eyes and start being rational and logical and they start to realize that maybe their emperor doesn't wear clothes but for some reasons this trend has largely gone unnoticed on Phoronix.com

1. nice of you to stop insulting thanks for that.

2. You write many long comments but I still don't really know what you want. I mean I understand ruffly what you think would be a great OS, but even if every person on the planet would agree on that, it would not magically happen.

Also I don't get what is your problem then with Windows? Do you just want to use windows (you mentioned loving proprietary software) but just want Linux users / Devs to admit that they or their OS sucks and then you are fine with the situation?

You used the market share of linux as proof that Linux sucks, so it has 2% because it sucks, therefor if windows has >90% it must be great according to that logic, I also see at least partially (didn't read all of it) of your description of a great os there. They have a stable ABI no fragmentation etc.

So why not using it then? And if you use it, why do you care about Linux then?

[Weasel]

Actually elementary logic would say you're affirming the consequent which is a logical fallacy.

No I'm referring to the fact that in order to change something (i.e. get more market share), something has to be done, instead of CONTINUING the same thing and expecting different results next time. That's just elementary logic.

I never knew that doing the same thing could look so diverse. Oh wait... the diversity of the solutions is what you're complaining about.

Diverse? Every distro is almost the same fucking thing, just with different packages installed. Oh, it's "diverse" in underlying API/ABI breakage alright, just to piss users even more.

How about a distro that:

• Has no central repository of applications except for very system-core stuff (e.g. bash/shell, virtual terminal, very core stuff). All apps are installed by downloading them from the vendor and then running some command or double-clicking, whatever. Make it easy for the vendor to BUILD ONCE and work on all versions of the distro starting from a point. Cater to the 3rd party devs and they will come.
• Uses something more sane than ELF or forces all apps/libs to use symbol versioning or a way to identify which module they are from, without ambiguity (i.e. forced).
• Oh and that includes libraries and "installing" them without a central repository.
• The directory structure will never change.
• If the OS promises something, some service or API that apps rely on, it will continue to provide it indefinitely instead of "dropping old packages", even if it's just a wrapper to something newer and shinier (just like the kernel btw, not a super alien concept for Linux, it's just the userland...).

Now that would be, you know, diverse. We'd actually have a choice here.

You haven't actually read his "solution" have you? It's really not worth your time but you might want to take a look before you go racing to his side.

What are you referring to? I'm talking about his first post in here.

I won't name the project, but I know at least two open source devs who are sick of dealing with Linux issues like: "xyz library is not available on distro Y" or "xyz library is in a different path on distro Z, need to special case it". Why the fuck can stuff on Windows "just work" (given a minimum requirement, obviously, that's okay with Linux too), and in Linux it has to be such a fucking nightmare because of the pathetic distros and the library devs for userland?

Obviously those devs also have Windows ports, but they are tired of maintaining the Linux side, and it's due to the instability and "diversity" or whatever other reason. That's also what a LOT of other companies say -- "it's open source so it's too diverse we can't provide support so we won't port" and blabla. "Open source" is, of course, a scapegoat. They just don't want to hurt feelings by saying the userland is trash tier.

In Linux, stuff does "just work" but only if you have a simple app that statically links everything. Because the kernel is designed well, the userland is garbage.

Well the kernel still has ABI breakage for drivers but that's another topic...

What he's saying is that Linux and OSS are an anarchy not a democracy. If you want someone to do your bidding you need to give them an incentive to do, otherwise you need to dig in and do it yourself. You have no authority over anyone.

Logical fallacy. And who said anything about democracy or voting?

You can't seriously just claim that distros don't want users. Yes, they're free to do what they want, but you can't come out and honestly tell me with a straight face that all of them don't care about the amount of users, they just want to do their own thing for unimaginably shit reasons.

Fact is, distros can't even do it by themselves only, since they don't control all the shit-tier library devs. That's another problem.

Now as to what would actually cause an expansion of Linux on the desktop is that someone (Google, IBM, SUSE, Canonical, Valve, Samsung, etc) needs to put in a push for putting real Linux on the desktop out there on the OEM level

They don't want to push a platform that's a pain in the ass to them. It's really simple.

I don't know how simpler you want me to make this.

Just off the top of my head, an example would be SimpleScreenRecorder's dev, who rightfully complains about API/ABI breakage in ffmpeg and its libs (that it uses). You don't have that volatile instability on Windows. And that's a Linux dev, now try to attract devs outside of it or OEMs, good luck. Keep thinking that it's not a pain in the ass for almost any developer already, you just ignore their complaints because you treat the current status quo as some sort of patriarchy.


Another example would be Apple deprecating/dropping OpenGL, forcing Feral to port their games again, pissing them off in the process (they already had to port once). This is exactly why volatile unstable clusterfuck systems have piss poor market share: devs don't want to port because it's a pain in the ass, users don't use it because they don't have app XYZ available, because devs didn't want to port it. Guess why Mac has such a shit market share for games, even with Apple being a huge company and all that.

So it's not lack of corporate backing that's the culprit, as you seem to imply here. Copy the success from the winners (Windows) not the failures from the retarded losers.

[Luke_Wolf]

No I'm referring to the fact that in order to change something (i.e. get more market share), something has to be done, instead of CONTINUING the same thing and expecting different results next time. That's just elementary logic.

That's not what you said, and you know it. You stepped on the side that everything must be changed rather than that something must be done, and from what I know of you your ideas and Birdie's ideas do not align in spite of you jumping in on his side.

Diverse? Every distro is almost the same fucking thing, just with different packages installed. Oh, it's "diverse" in underlying API/ABI breakage alright, just to piss users even more.

How about a distro that:

• Has no central repository of applications except for very system-core stuff (e.g. bash/shell, virtual terminal, very core stuff). All apps are installed by downloading them from the vendor and then running some command or double-clicking, whatever. Make it easy for the vendor to BUILD ONCE and work on all versions of the distro starting from a point. Cater to the 3rd party devs and they will come.
• Uses something more sane than ELF or forces all apps/libs to use symbol versioning or a way to identify which module they are from, without ambiguity (i.e. forced).
• Oh and that includes libraries and "installing" them without a central repository.
• The directory structure will never change.
• If the OS promises something, some service or API that apps rely on, it will continue to provide it indefinitely instead of "dropping old packages", even if it's just a wrapper to something newer and shinier (just like the kernel btw, not a super alien concept for Linux, it's just the userland...).

Now that would be, you know, diverse. We'd actually have a choice here.

So... The opposite of what birdie wants? birdie and in general the people you think you're siding with but really aren't would rather have everyone unified under the same distro. A central distro with a central repository.

What are you referring to? I'm talking about his first post in here.

You might want to actually read through the thread and keep up. He's posted more than the first time, and he also has a reputation in the forums. A bad one that he has created through his own fault. I don't necessarily agree with everything you have to say but unlike him I don't think you're a liar, just someone who has strong opinions.

I won't name the project, but I know at least two open source devs who are sick of dealing with Linux issues like: "xyz library is not available on distro Y" or "xyz library is in a different path on distro Z, need to special case it". Why the fuck can stuff on Windows "just work" (given a minimum requirement, obviously, that's okay with Linux too), and in Linux it has to be such a fucking nightmare because of the pathetic distros and the library devs for userland?

Obviously those devs also have Windows ports, but they are tired of maintaining the Linux side, and it's due to the instability and "diversity" or whatever other reason. That's also what a LOT of other companies say -- "it's open source so it's too diverse we can't provide support so we won't port" and blabla. "Open source" is, of course, a scapegoat. They just don't want to hurt feelings by saying the userland is trash tier.

In Linux, stuff does "just work" but only if you have a simple app that statically links everything. Because the kernel is designed well, the userland is garbage.

Well the kernel still has ABI breakage for drivers but that's another topic...

Cross distro compatibility is absolutely an issue I'll give you that, but in so far as it can practically be solved systemd is solving it. Unfortunately more than that for now is a pipe dream.

Logical fallacy. And who said anything about democracy or voting?

Blackiwid, who you were responding to, and Birdie in his demands.

You can't seriously just claim that distros don't want users. Yes, they're free to do what they want, but you can't come out and honestly tell me with a straight face that all of them don't care about the amount of users, they just want to do their own thing for unimaginably shit reasons.

Fact is, distros can't even do it by themselves only, since they don't control all the shit-tier library devs. That's another problem.

They don't want to push a platform that's a pain in the ass to them. It's really simple.

Except the aforementioned companies do all the time... in server space. Google runs Linux desktops internally,

I don't know how simpler you want me to make this.

Just off the top of my head, an example would be SimpleScreenRecorder's dev, who rightfully complains about API/ABI breakage in ffmpeg and its libs (that it uses). You don't have that volatile instability on Windows. And that's a Linux dev, now try to attract devs outside of it or OEMs, good luck. Keep thinking that it's not a pain in the ass for almost any developer already, you just ignore their complaints because you treat the current status quo as some sort of patriarchy.

lol do you know who you're talking to? You might want to pay more attention.

Another example would be Apple deprecating/dropping OpenGL, forcing Feral to port their games again, pissing them off in the process (they already had to port once). This is exactly why volatile unstable clusterfuck systems have piss poor market share: devs don't want to port because it's a pain in the ass, users don't use it because they don't have app XYZ available, because devs didn't want to port it. Guess why Mac has such a shit market share for games, even with Apple being a huge company and all that.

So it's not lack of corporate backing that's the culprit, as you seem to imply here. Copy the success from the winners (Windows) not the failures from the retarded losers.

It is the culprit. The sole real culprit. Linux's lack of desktop success has literally nothing to do with its technical issues at this point. Both you and birdie and most other people taking your "side" are vastly overplaying the technical issues Linux has, pretending that it's some bugbear that only the technically adept can possibly use. Protip: That hasn't been true for a very very long time. I can sit the average user down in front of KDE, XFCE, or Cinnamon and they can use it just fine.

If the issues you complain about were really what holds Linux back then OS X would have 0 market share. Compatibility is explicitly not a guarantee there and Apple has been more than happy to break the world a few times. Sure their share is small but they do have a foothold, and Linux is more than capable of doing better because it is better. Going up against Windows though? Well... first things first.

[Weasel]

That's not what you said, and you know it. You stepped on the side that everything must be changed rather than that something must be done, and from what I know of you your ideas and Birdie's ideas do not align in spite of you jumping in on his side.

So you're saying that the fucking userland API/ABI mess and package manager is "everything" in Linux?

No wonder you fanboys tell us to use Windows if that's the only thing you see in Linux. Pathetic really.

So... The opposite of what birdie wants? birdie and in general the people you think you're siding with but really aren't would rather have everyone unified under the same distro. A central distro with a central repository.

Quote him where he said central repository.

He wants a distro with a stable platform that people can build apps for and it gets UNCHANGED so that he has to build ONCE and it works on ALL distros (or just that one central distro, it does not matter).

The problem isn't that we have many distros. The problem is that each distro uses its own libraries (sometimes renames them for no reason), its own directory trees, its own daemons (and incompatibly so, granted less of that with systemd but still), etc, which makes it a pain in the ass FOR A 3RD PARTY DEVELOPER to port to "Linux".

As you know, currently NOT ONLY do you have to build packages for EACH TYPE of distro (e.g. Fedora, RHEL, Ubuntu), you also have to build packages for EACH VERSION of the distros. That's beyond pathetic and literally plaguing Linux (and btw that's what Linus Torvalds is also complaining about, since he linked him in the first post). I don't know if he said anything else -- I don't care, I support his first post in this thread.

You might want to actually read through the thread and keep up. He's posted more than the first time, and he also has a reputation in the forums. A bad one that he has created through his own fault. I don't necessarily agree with everything you have to say but unlike him I don't think you're a liar, just someone who has strong opinions.

I don't know, to be honest I can't really be bothered, I just agree with his first post in the thread, and with Linus.

Except the aforementioned companies do all the time... in server space. Google runs Linux desktops internally,

Yeah, lost cause trying to talk sense into people about Linux problems, I guess life will always suck with shit tier OSes because people always have to fuck up 70% of the OS (yes Windows is also shit tier, even tho its platform is good, the OS itself is garbage and I will never touch that spyware-ridden Windows 10).

Let's use a bit of logic here. So, the context is always about Linux's poor market share. Always. Does Linux have a low market share in servers? Yes? No?

No.

So why the hell would anyone keep coming up with SERVER context or arguments is beyond me.

For fuck's sake guys, we're talking about Linux's desktop issues when we speak of low market share. Literally nobody cares about servers in these arguments. Use a little brain, please.

lol do you know who you're talking to? You might want to pay more attention.

No, and I don't care unless it matters (which it likely won't)?

It is the culprit. The sole real culprit. Linux's lack of desktop success has literally nothing to do with its technical issues at this point. Both you and birdie and most other people taking your "side" are vastly overplaying the technical issues Linux has, pretending that it's some bugbear that only the technically adept can possibly use. Protip: That hasn't been true for a very very long time. I can sit the average user down in front of KDE, XFCE, or Cinnamon and they can use it just fine.

It might surprise you, but people using desktops expect to install their own applications. They also want "their favorite application" not "just as good an alternative". If they want Photoshop, they want Photoshop, not GIMP, or Krita.

And how do you get Photoshop? By catering to the devs. Devs want to distribute their own software, not rely on 3rd party package maintainers. Do you know what devs want? To build once and have it work, on all distros, in binary because even if it's open source (which it probably isn't), people will still ask for binaries and plague them with requests to package for their distro, because most people will NOT compile code.

And no, "package repositories" will NOT cut it, they need to be rid of entirely. It's such a stupid concept I'm just so shocked that almost EVERY distro uses the same garbage -- no wonder they ALL suck.

Users don't use a centralized app store cancer like the mobile muppets. Devs absolutely hate having to deal with that, as well.

No devs = no apps. No apps = no users. Really simple as that.

That's why all centralized stores failed on the desktop. Linux just pisses off the devs and then whines why there's not enough apps to bring in users.

And again, nobody cares about "alternatives", even if they are just as good.

If the issues you complain about were really what holds Linux back then OS X would have 0 market share. Compatibility is explicitly not a guarantee there and Apple has been more than happy to break the world a few times. Sure their share is small but they do have a foothold, and Linux is more than capable of doing better because it is better. Going up against Windows though? Well... first things first.

You're contradicting yourself. I never said that ALL users on the desktop want what I describe, i say that's what the majority wants. I don't know how to make you understand, but 90% is the vast majority.

Apple tried their own thing, and it failed. It's not zero market share, it still has a market, but it's a failure (sub 10%).

Why the fuck would Linux copy a failure and expect success?!? Just copy the fucking Windows, stop copying Apple they fucking failed. Even if it's better than OS X (doubtful; I mean it's better in many areas and probably not in others, I absolutely hate Macs tho so I'm biased).

But no, you see Linux copying Apple even in UI (except a few sane ones which copy Windows), it's beyond disgusting to be honest.

[srakitnican]

@Weasel

Or they can choose to support only one distro like Black Magic did with Resolve. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[tildearrow]

@Weasel

Or they can choose to support only one distro like Black Magic did with Resolve. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There is a problem though: what if the supported distro betrays its users? (like when Ubuntu slowly became more unstable with every release, or when they dropped Unity and went the GNOME route)

Edit: there is also another problem. They'd have to support every single version of that distro, otherwise:

waifu2x-converter-cpp: error while loading shared libraries: libopencv_imgcodecs.so.3.4: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

Plus if the distro they decide to support is a rolling-release one, it becomes practically impossible to support every "version"...

[Weasel]

There is a problem though: what if the supported distro betrays its users? (like when Ubuntu slowly became more unstable with every release, or when they dropped Unity and went the GNOME route)

Edit: there is also another problem. They'd have to support every single version of that distro, otherwise:

waifu2x-converter-cpp: error while loading shared libraries: libopencv_imgcodecs.so.3.4: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

Plus if the distro they decide to support is a rolling-release one, it becomes practically impossible to support every "version"...

Don't forget yet another reason: even lower market share.

Users may not be that important (because ultimately it depends more on the porting and maintenance costs, since that's what has to be lower than the revenue from the users), but they are still a factor after all. "Linux" may have enough users but I don't know if a single specific distro would.

[tildearrow]

Biggest letdown is Linus deciding that any random woman is more important than the guys who contributed years. He's like any white boy.

Oh no, please don't turn this thread into a SJW vs. Anti-(SJW) warrior flame war...

[srakitnican]

There is a problem though: what if the supported distro betrays its users? (like when Ubuntu slowly became more unstable with every release, or when they dropped Unity and went the GNOME route)

Edit: there is also another problem. They'd have to support every single version of that distro, otherwise:

waifu2x-converter-cpp: error while loading shared libraries: libopencv_imgcodecs.so.3.4: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

Plus if the distro they decide to support is a rolling-release one, it becomes practically impossible to support every "version"...

The Black Magic Resolve supports only RHEL, this problem is non existent there since nothing changes much in a decade. I don't think any commercial provider would want to opt for a rolling release since it is a moving target.