PostgreSQL Is The Latest Open-Source Project To Announce A Code of Conduct

[uid313]

You still have your right to be an asshole. They just implemented a right not being forced to interact with you.

No, because instead of ignoring me and keep going on with their day, they wan't to expel me.
Many coders are good at code and bad with people.

Imagine if Linus Torvalds would have been fired by the Linux Foundation, kicked out of the community, and had his Git access revoked because he pointed his middle finger at Nvidia, offended someone by spewing hate on C++, and wrote an angry ALL CAPS email telling people he is sick of people pushing untested crap.

[cen1]

That it, I am moving to db2.

[fuzz]

not true
i am a diagnosed asperger too and we can learn it. it's just harder for us.
and... i urge you to try it. it has MANY good effects

I am, as well, and agree with you that is is useful.

However, it does not ignore the fact that rules like this inherently segregate us by definition -- especially in an area where we typically excel.

This issue is exacerbated when you consider the primary [currently understood] contributing factor of Asperger's is genetic mutation. While it certainly hasn't led to reproductive isolation, it's not far-fetched to consider it a genetic drift where the neurotypical definition of "normal" does not apply. I would say it's similar to the idea of it being a separate "race," though I don't have the adequate vocabulary (if it exists) or knowledge to describe it in a neurological context.

I don't have a problem with being "nice." I have a problem with its codification and potential use for suppression because "niceness" is highly subjective, can change in any context, and can be abused if someone wants to get rid of you.

You can't make rules out of this crap because they just don't hold up. Those in the Asperger's minority are not the only ones with differences in social norms.

[microcode]

This is likely the beginning of the end, it certainly has been before.

I love how people manage to recreate workplace politics where none needed to exist, and in response to no incident.

[flower]

I am, as well, and agree with you that is is useful.

However, it does not ignore the fact that rules like this inherently segregate us by definition -- especially in an area where we typically excel.

I see it this way: Especially in IT, we always have to learn and get better. The same is true for ourselves. We recognize weaknesses and change them. Rudeness or choleric, I see as weakness.

This issue is exacerbated when you consider the primary [currently understood] contributing factor of Asperger's is genetic mutation. While it certainly hasn't led to reproductive isolation, it's not far-fetched to consider it a genetic drift where the neurotypical definition of "normal" does not apply. I would say it's similar to the idea of it being a separate "race," though I don't have the adequate vocabulary (if it exists) or knowledge to describe it in a neurological context.

agreed

I don't have a problem with being "nice." I have a problem with its codification and potential use for suppression because "niceness" is highly subjective, can change in any context, and can be abused if someone wants to get rid of you.

It seems to me that you mess up honesty, rudeness and kindness.
In addition, friendliness and "not unfriendly" are two different things.

You can express honest criticism in a form that does not hurt and still arrives! That's what we need to practice more than others. But it works. In the companies where I worked as a team leader programming, a polite approach was always mandatory. If I had even said a little insult there, I would have received a warning and the second time I would have been terminated. I was never quit. But I got a warning once.

You can't make rules out of this crap because they just don't hold up. Those in the Asperger's minority are not the only ones with differences in social norms.

Rules are good when they are clear. A simple "Never Say a Belief" is very easy to follow.

(Please excuse my english ... I had to use google-translate to spell it out as it is a bit more complicated.)

[aht0]

Funny. I remeber how people sneered here at FreeBSD's CoC. Now Linux has one and other projects seem to be following. Lol.

[ssokolow]

As a person with Asperger syndrome with limited emotional intelligence I am an asshole by nature.
I don't like Code of Conducts because they make me feel excluded by not having tolerance for my natural predisposition towards being an insensitive asshole.

As another person with Asperger syndrome (professionally diagnosed), I have no problem with codes of conduct, as long as...

A. ...successfully following these four points puts me in line with the intent of the code of conduct:

1. Attack points, not people
2. Be constructive
3. Be as polite as you know how to be
4. Stay on topic as much as possible, for whatever definition of "on topic" applies to a given context.

B. ...the community is willing to accept that I am making a good-faith effort to follow the code of conduct, but my own disability means I will sometimes make mistakes and that I need explanations more than censure when I do make a mistake.

Aside from CoCs giving me more clarification on what behaviour is appropriate, which I like, I've often likened a Code of Conduct to a "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" or "Quiet in the Library" sign. If you don't follow the rules for a venue, it's their prerogative to kick you out. Restaurants can refuse service to nudists who refuse to cover up, and libraries can kick out people who are being disruptive. Why would it be any different if someone is causing trouble in a non-physical venue?

A restaurant can kick you out for being an asshole, so why can't a forum or mailing list?

That said, I do like L_A_G's suggestion to make the CoC more directed to limit the potential for abuse and to make bad-faith responses more difficult to get away with.

However, it does not ignore the fact that rules like this inherently segregate us by definition -- especially in an area where we typically excel.

This has been studied enough that there's actually a term for it. I'm having trouble remembering the exact phrasing, but it's something like "the paradox of inclusiveness" and it refers to how, a community, group, or organization that values inclusiveness as a core principle must inevitably be forced to either compromise that principle to defend itself or be eroded and destroyed from within.

On the other hand, it is very true that identity politics can be used to oppress people. RationalWiki's Identity Politics page has an excellent section on that.

(The TL;DR is that people trying to gain power through identity politics try to create new rules of etiquette faster than others can keep up, thus making them the privileged class.)

[sjekkel]

The issue with your restaurant analogy is that as someone who loves to walk around barefoot I simply don't use the business denying me service even when I have shoes on, fuck them. But for software projects I have already contributed code that then introduce a CoC after I can't just pull my contribution out. It's already in there and the project profits despite me not wanting to support people that are intolerant towards different lifestyles.

[fuzz]

It seems to me that you mess up honesty, rudeness and kindness.
In addition, friendliness and "not unfriendly" are two different things.

I believe I know exactly what you mean. An objective environment, where we just talk about facts, would be ideal. And that's normally what happens.

The problem is there are people in the world who think simply using objective facts wont be enough, and if you use the "wrong" words (which is a subjective and ever-changing concept) then you need to be kicked out of the project.

Honesty is one thing, but rudeness and kindness will always vary by definition and person.

Now, I want to be clear. I don't think the intention of being rude should be encouraged, and Linus, for example, probably went overboard according to some people. Personally I just laugh it off because everyone gets in bad moods, shit happens, and dealing with people is necessary but often unfortunate. The way the community deals with responding to one's bad mood says a whole lot more than the person with the bad mood.

That said, the codifying of subjective truths has the potential to be disastrous when in the wrong hands and I think it's healthier for people to just work out their issues instead of kicking people out.

In the companies where I worked as a team leader programming, a polite approach was always mandatory. If I had even said a little insult there, I would have received a warning and the second time I would have been terminated. I was never quit. But I got a warning once.

The crux of the matter is open source software communities like Linux are not like corporate teams. I believe books like "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" touch on this a little bit. The project has been so successful because it doesn't (or didn't) follow the typical norms associated with corporate environments.

That said, some have noted (even in reply to Linus) that the ecosystem of Linux has changed and most of the contributors don't have the freedom to respond as freely as they perhaps once might have. This is very sad indeed, and I only hope they will be able to keep up the "Bazaar" nature of the project.

[fuzz]

This has been studied enough that there's actually a term for it. I'm having trouble remembering the exact phrasing, but it's something like "the paradox of inclusiveness" and it refers to how, a community, group, or organization that values inclusiveness as a core principle must inevitably be forced to either compromise that principle to defend itself or be eroded and destroyed from within.

This reminds me of how it seems like geek/nerd/"hacker" culture has been eroded into an unrecognizable form to fit in within a larger society. Maybe this is why we need niche projects to exist. Maybe some projects should stay niche.

Ultimately, it feels as if the culture industry is undermining successful, hobbyist projects.

On the other hand, it is very true that identity politics can be used to oppress people. RationalWiki's Identity Politics page has an excellent section on that.

Good reading and a nice refresher on the topic, thanks .