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  • #31
    Nocifer Red Hat not helping the community? That’s ridiculous.

    People should just stop doing bad wayland compositors. Maybe one last commit explaining why this was such a bad idea.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by reavertm
      Apparently not everyone cares because it look Wayland 12 years to take off and it's still relatively nowhere.
      I’ve been using it for years. It works well.

      Btw, I understood your question perfectly. The answer is that sometimes the architecture of the code is so bad that to make major improvements, you must start from a clean slate. Evolving it when it’s a spaghetti code mess makes no sense because you aren’t fixing the underlying problems.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by reavertm View Post
        Apparently not everyone cares because it look Wayland 12 years to take off and it's still relatively nowhere.
        The core release of Wayland as the team saw it ready for general consumption was in 2014, 7 years ago.
        The first compositors had a usable state in 2017 with Gnome and 2019 with KDE.
        For those 7 Years, Wayland already well established itself in the industrial usage, embedded systems and ARM devices.

        Originally posted by reavertm View Post
        I was asking what others think about the idea that perhaps it would have been better to evolve X11 libraries in backward incompatible manner.
        No you can not, X11 is fundamentally broken by design.

        Originally posted by reavertm View Post
        Microsoft did that between WDM -> WDF.
        WDM and WDF are driver frameworks for the hybrid kernel called NT.

        Originally posted by reavertm View Post
        WDM and WDF is not a set of protocols everyone has to implement on their own.
        Yes, its a driver framework.
        You mean DWM. DWM would be the modern day equivalent to Wayland on Windows and it has a compatibility layer like Xwayland to display pre-DWM clients.

        Originally posted by reavertm View Post
        It's set of ready tools and libraries. That's what traditional X11 was.
        X11 is the protocol, you mean Xorg, one of the many X11 implementations throughout the years.
        Xorg is a set of tools and a server implementing the X11 protocol.

        Originally posted by reavertm View Post
        How is Wayland approach fundamentally better than "X11" approach? Releasing protocol is not always the best approach because anyone can abuse protocol, make own assumptions about it, implement it partially. You can say "then use good compositor". And I could say "it's broken by design if room for abuses was made in first place".
        X11 is a protocol, Xorg is that set of tools and a server you mean.
        Imagine what, there are many X11 implementations out there, all making their own assumptions about the protocol. You just lived in that short time where about everyone was using Xorg. There were times in history where every GPU producer had their own X Server implementing the X11 protocol with various extensions for graphical acceleration where applications had to support those extensions.

        To be honest, I have the strong feeling that you have not the slightest clue what you are talking about.

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        • #34
          The real problem is nobody is using a common framework for MAKING their compositors. I tried Sway and it detected all my displays without issue... if KDE/GNOME don't use a common EDID parser, and device management, then Wayland is a failure not so much of the protocol but for creating even more fragmentation with no usability.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by spstarr View Post
            The real problem is nobody is using a common framework for MAKING their compositors. I tried Sway and it detected all my displays without issue... if KDE/GNOME don't use a common EDID parser, and device management, then Wayland is a failure not so much of the protocol but for creating even more fragmentation with no usability.
            Cool, tell me more about how there was no fragmentation before Wayland and how the Linux ecosystem was a happy community of like-minded individuals.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post
              The core release of Wayland as the team saw it ready for general consumption was in 2014, 7 years ago.
              The first compositors had a usable state in 2017 with Gnome and 2019 with KDE.
              For those 7 Years, Wayland already well established itself in the industrial usage, embedded systems and ARM devices.



              No you can not, X11 is fundamentally broken by design.


              WDM and WDF are driver frameworks for the hybrid kernel called NT.


              Yes, its a driver framework.
              You mean DWM. DWM would be the modern day equivalent to Wayland on Windows and it has a compatibility layer like Xwayland to display pre-DWM clients.


              X11 is the protocol, you mean Xorg, one of the many X11 implementations throughout the years.
              Xorg is a set of tools and a server implementing the X11 protocol.


              X11 is a protocol, Xorg is that set of tools and a server you mean.
              Imagine what, there are many X11 implementations out there, all making their own assumptions about the protocol. You just lived in that short time where about everyone was using Xorg. There were times in history where every GPU producer had their own X Server implementing the X11 protocol with various extensions for graphical acceleration where applications had to support those extensions.

              To be honest, I have the strong feeling that you have not the slightest clue what you are talking about.
              I think you are the one who is intellectually dishonest here.
              Application developers use libX11, libXft, libXinerama and all other bunch of libraries.
              For consumer - application, X11 is not a protocol but API.
              ​​From application pov all X11 network-transparent interworkings are entirely opaque.
              When approaching X11 evolution you seem fixated on sharing the mindset of Wayland developers - "let's reuse ancient X11 client-server architecture, except focus on defining protocols better". Implementation is afterthought.
              But it could have been just as well designed with focus on providing the best API and implementation, leaving internals implementation specific and possibly subject to change - a'ka irrelevant for your DE.
              Now all 3rd party implementations are stuck with the protocol and if not all use cases were identified during its inception, everyone will have to be working it around or implement adaptation if protocol is updated.
              Last edited by reavertm; 18 April 2021, 11:50 AM.

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