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  • the_scx
    replied
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Not quite.

    A stable API (Application Programming Interface) would ensure you don't need to modify the code. Linux has one of those and it is fairly stable (Compared to winrt or the Microsoft Store anyway).
    Bullshit. Linux API (as a software platform, not kernel syscalls) in unstable as hell.
    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...op-Issues-2018
    https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...67#post1111167

    BTW: You should listen to what Linus Torvalds said.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&t=04m43s
    https://github.com/AppImage/AppImage...ssue-109864970
    Originally posted by Linus Torvalds
    So you actually want to just compile one binary and have it work. Preferably forever. And preferably across all Linux distributions. And I actually think distributions have done a horribly, horribly bad job. One of the things that I do on the kernel - and I have to fight this every single release and I think it's sad - we have one rule in the kernel, one rule: we don't break userspace. (...) People break userspace, I get really, really angry. (...) And then all the distributions come in and they screw it all up. Because they break binary compatibility left and right. They update glibc and everything breaks. (...) So that's my rant. And that's what I really fundamentally think needs to change for Linux to work on the desktop because you can't have applications writers to do fifteen billion different versions.
    Even if you decide to use outdated/deprecated components, building an old program on a new system is not that easy. In the case of a typical GNOME2/Gtk+2 application, you will probably have to:
    - Patch the code against a new version of GCC.
    - Provide patches against new versions of libstdcxx, Boost, ICU, etc.
    - Add even more bunches of patches.
    - Replace components that are no longer exist, e.g. replace old GNOME Doc with Yelp.
    - Replace some of legacy components to gain at least a slightly higher level of security, e.g. replace unsupported LUA with LuaJIT.
    - Porting Autotools to CMake or Meson is not required, but highly recommended.
    - Providing AppData is welcome as well.

    But if this app use WebKitGTK+, you're screwed anyway. In this case, you have to basically rewrite the app to Gtk+3, because WebKitGTK+ has over 150 unfixed security vulnerabilities, and nobody is going to fix it. What's worse, WebKit2 is unavailable for Gtk+2, so you must first port the app to Gtk+3, and then port it to WebKit2.
    https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2...urity-updates/
    https://lists.fedoraproject.org/arch...YHYT6NLLTF5VM/
    Originally posted by Michael Catanzaro
    While upgrading to the WebKit2 API will be easy for most applications (it took me ten minutes to upgrade GNOME Initial Setup), for many others it will be a significant challenge. Since rendering occurs out of process in WebKit2, the DOM API can only be accessed by means of a shared object injected into the web process. For applications that perform only a small amount of DOM manipulation, this is a minor inconvenience compared to the old API. For applications that use extensive DOM manipulation — the email clients Evolution and Geary, for instance — it’s not just an inconvenience, but a major undertaking to upgrade to the new API. Worse, some applications (including both Geary and Evolution) placed GTK+ widgets inside the web view; this is no longer possible, so such widgets need to be rewritten using HTML5. Say nothing of applications like GIMP and Geany that are stuck on GTK+ 2. They first have to upgrade to GTK+ 3 before they can consider upgrading to modern WebKitGTK+. GIMP is working on a GTK+ 3 port anyway (GIMP uses WebKitGTK+ for its help browser), but many applications like Geany (the IDE, not to be confused with Geary) are content to remain on GTK+ 2 forever. Such applications are out of luck.
    On the other hand, Microsoft still provides security patches for MSHTML (Trident).

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    A stable ABI (Application Binary Interface) is what Linux does not aim for in the kernel. This means that if the kernel changes, kernel modules need to be recompiled (no source change needed) and relinked against the new kernel. This is what makes binary blobs less effective on Linux compared to Windows.
    Another bullshit.
    https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...62#post1111462
    Kernel API (for drivers) is not stable as you think. The only reasons why NVIDIA drivers work pretty well are that they provide huge "glue" code, which is obviously open source, and they don't even try to depend on internal mechanisms like DRI or KMS. However, even this doesn't protect the driver against some regressions from time to time.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    I tend not to compromise on security. I would only really use stuff like that on my offline "older" workstations because software from 2013 *is* old.
    If you really trust the source, do not have to be afraid of anything. And if you don't, you can always use sandboxing (e.g. Flatpak). Anyway, no need for separated offline desktop for that.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    The majority of gamers do not use either of those operating systems, neither are "current" which is what gamers typically aim for (Missing the latest Wayland for example which people seem oddly obsessed with). This is a perfect example of proprietary software not really fitting in with how Linux works.
    You could use something like Arch Linux's AUR to get it on a recent Linux install, but then it is no longer officially supported. It is back to being hobbiest junk.
    Yet another bullshit. Ubuntu is the main distribution used on Steam, according to Valve. Moreover, they officially support only Ubuntu and SteamOS, which is a totally niche.
    GOG supports only selected Ubuntu LTS versions, depending on the game. Nothing else is supported. Nobody give a shit about Arch here.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    And that is basically Unity all over. It is just so un-innovative. The maker communities using it are always just playing catch up. However I am surprised you aren't using Flash...
    And I'm surprised how you can be such an ignorant.
    Cities in Motion, Cities in Motion 2, Cities: Skylines, Dreamfall Chapters: The Longest Journey, Firewatch, Inside, Kerbal Space Program, Leisure Suit Larry: Reloaded, Life is Strange: Before the Storm, Never Alone, Ori and the Blind Forest, Runner3, Rust, Shelter, Subnautica, Superhot, Syberia 3, The Forest, The Long Dark, The Novelist, Verdun - all of these games were created in Unity! Give me at least five 3D titles of such quality created in Flash or HTML5! You can't, because there is nothing like that! And you know why? Because these technologies are not suitable for it (to be honest, Unity had the ability to export to Flash, and still is able to export to HTML5, but it is very limited feature, so it's practically not used outside of simple 2D games)!

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    That is about the same age as your PDF viewer and proprietary (though if it was open-source, much of the software people wrote using it would still be working XD).
    Nonsense. The only reason why Flash now disappears is the trend to get rid of plugins from web browsers. Moreover, Gnash was an open source project, but it's been dead for a long time.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Flash was around for a while. How long before Unity dies and you have to rewrite all your code?
    Most games are finished products that are not longer updated one year after the release or so. Moreover, there is no need to rewrite anything, because Unity doesn't need a player/runtime in the sense that Flash games need it, and the output of the Unity is almost distro-agnostic. What's more, Steam is the main gaming platform for Linux, and it uses Steam Runtime to provide a stable ABI. If Linux somehow finds a way to fuck it up (e.g. completely drop support for OpenGL or abandon X11, including XWayland), then the commercial vendors will just drop Linux support, and you will have to forget about the Year of Desktop Linux literally for years. It will bring it back to the times before the Loki era.
    Anyway, Linux is a niche and I don't need to support it if it becomes to hard. Windows and Android markets are good enough for me. Unity is probably the best solution for making decent mobile games, and just great for mid range desktop games. Rather Google would drop Android in favor of Fuchsia, than Unity would just disappear.

    Leave a comment:


  • kpedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    When you have a stable ABI, you don't need to rewrite your software over and over again. This is the whole point of stable interfaces.
    Not quite.

    A stable API (Application Programming Interface) would ensure you don't need to modify the code. Linux has one of those and it is fairly stable (Compared to winrt or the Microsoft Store anyway).

    A stable ABI (Application Binary Interface) is what Linux does not aim for in the kernel. This means that if the kernel changes, kernel modules need to be recompiled (no source change needed) and relinked against the new kernel. This is what makes binary blobs less effective on Linux compared to Windows.

    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    Although it is old and unsupported (at least not officially), it is still the best PDF reader available for Linux.
    I tend not to compromise on security. I would only really use stuff like that on my offline "older" workstations because software from 2013 *is* old. But that is fine, the new S3 and SIS driver work would make it run nice and smooth

    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    What's more, today Unity Editor has official support for Ubuntu LTS and EL.
    The majority of gamers do not use either of those operating systems, neither are "current" which is what gamers typically aim for (Missing the latest Wayland for example which people seem oddly obsessed with). This is a perfect example of proprietary software not really fitting in with how Linux works.
    You could use something like Arch Linux's AUR to get it on a recent Linux install, but then it is no longer officially supported. It is back to being hobbiest junk.

    And that is basically Unity all over. It is just so un-innovative. The maker communities using it are always just playing catch up. However I am surprised you aren't using Flash... That is about the same age as your PDF viewer and proprietary (though if it was open-source, much of the software people wrote using it would still be working XD). Flash was around for a while. How long before Unity dies and you have to rewrite all your code?

    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    Do you use BSD?! Don't you know that Stallman kills a little kitten every time you boot a non-GNU system?!
    What a crazy thing to say. He wouldn't be able to get hold of one. Most kitten rescue websites use non-free Javascript.
    Last edited by kpedersen; 29 July 2019, 04:12 AM.

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  • the_scx
    replied
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    If the community is not interested... then yes an elf will be your best bet. It is much more realistic that a fantasy creature can be relied upon to maintain a driver than the original vendor once the hardware reaches EOL haha!
    When you have a stable ABI, you don't need to rewrite your software over and over again. This is the whole point of stable interfaces.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    The Nouveau driver didn't magically become unstable and buggy
    Agree. It has nothing to do with magic. It's only the fault of the community that the code sucks so much.
    I am not saying that the problem exists in every case. I noticed this on EL6 when using Chrome on Fermi or Kepler GPUs. I have given up on Nouveau since then. In EL7 I decided to use NVIVIA blob from the very begging and I am happy with this choice.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    people with the expectation of gaming just grab the nvidia blob directly.
    As I said, it is not only about performance, but also driver stability and quality. Moreover, Nouveau don't support CUDA and NVENC, and probably never will.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Those who don't game generally don't run into too many issues with Nouveau and keep it.
    Oh, so instability is not a serious problem for open source fanatics?

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    In fact the Wayland experience is commonly cited to be better with Nouveau because of NVIDIA's non-standard choice of EGLStreams.
    Wayland has so many itches that it is barely usable on desktop anyway.
    https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...04#post1099204
    BTW: EGLStreams is a multi-platform standard and GBM is just a Mesa invention. Anyway, today EGLStreams is supported by Mutter and Kwin5.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    So what are you saying? You already stated that Intel wasn't going to work on the abandoned driver... so yes, wait for a dwarf. Just as reliable a solution it seems. XD
    And where is the mystical community that was supposed to deal with every problem?

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Luckily with open-source, it is likely that one day this driver will be picked up or at least slightly maintained (i.e like S3 and SIS are).
    Again, magical thinking.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    I have already mentioned this OpenGL 2.x complexity in a previous post on this thread. I have real hands on experience with this issue since I use the i915 in my Z61t. With the environment variable fix mentioned earlier, it can run Blender with 2.1 OpenGL. Contrast this to the i915 Intel driver for Windows which is not even 2.0 but in fact 1.4 haha. Proof that no matter how complex open-source support gets... it is consistently better than proprietary for older hardware in the long run.
    Almost nobody care about OpenGL on Windows, because Direct3D is all that matters here. And with Swift Shader, Windows users were able to run games that depend even on Shader Model 3.0.
    http://web.archive.org/web/200902250...iftshader/faq/
    http://dotbootstrap.x2q.net/gaming-w...ased-chipsets/
    Try to do this on Linux with shitty LLVMpipe/Softpipe/SWR performance.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Also try running the i915 on something new like Windows 10... there is no driver, no OpenGL, no DirectX. There is no proprietary model here. Open-source is the *only* solution.
    A few seconds of searching in Google:
    https://superuser.com/a/1376427
    It also works the other way round. I was able to use the NVIDIA driver for Fermi and Kepler GPUs on Windows 2000, thanks to the great Windows community, especially MSFN and blackwingcat.
    https://msfn.org/board/forum/35-windows-20002003nt4/
    http://blog.livedoor.jp/blackwingcat/

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    You can run what you want but if you find that proprietary software is the majority of software you run, then you personally would benefit from being within that ecosystem.
    The vast majority of the software I use is open source, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't intend to say goodbye to the proprietary one.
    There are many fanatics in the Linux community who are trying to tell me that I don't have the right to use proprietary software on this system, only because it is not in line with their ideology.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Also if you use the Unity Editor for any professional work (which is rare for Unity because it is effectively a prosumer piece of shite) then you will be on the Windows platform because Linux is a 3rd class citizen and the tool is barely out of beta for it.
    Unity is the best thing that happened to Linux when it comes to games. If Unity wouldn't exist, you could forget about most Linux ports. It is currently the most popular multi-platform game engine.
    What's more, today Unity Editor has official support for Ubuntu LTS and EL.
    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tor-Linux-2019

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Also, you use Adobe Reader... isn't that pretty old (and 32-bit only)?
    So? Does the software have to be rewritten every two years? Although it is old and unsupported (at least not officially), it is still the best PDF reader available for Linux.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    If you run WIndows, you can use a later, more secure version. This is what Adobe recommends since they removed it from their website. Last security update was 2013 haha. Use an open-source PDF reader if I were you (Xpdf or Evince are my recommendation). At least it would be less vulnerable
    Try to fill PDF forms in Evince or xpdf, especially when JavaScript is involved. Good luck!
    For most documents, Chrome or Atril (Evince fork for MATE) are good enough. However, there are completely unsuitable for complex official documents. The same applies to the documents with embedded 3D objects.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_3D
    https://www.pdf3d.com/latest-examples/
    https://helpcenterint-wpengine.netdn...images/U3D.pdf
    Or maybe I should pay some Windows users to do certain things for me, because you think Linux is unsuitable for it? I have already encountered such suggestions, so it will not surprise me.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Not at all. GNU/Linux is *the* open-source operating system.
    Just because the kernel is an open source project, it doesn't mean that users should be force to use only free software. It also works the other way round: no one should stop people from using open source software on Windows.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Due to its fantastic hardware support, I use it on all platforms that cannot quite run FreeBSD.
    Do you use BSD?! Don't you know that Stallman kills a little kitten every time you boot a non-GNU system?!

    Leave a comment:


  • kneekoo
    replied
    Kevin, thank you! \o/ Each step forward is welcome. Just bringing it in the spotlight it might get someone else's attention, which is a great thing for old hardware.

    I wish there was an "Old Hardware Foundation" to organize bounties for popular old hardware, so the developers can get paid and the people having that hardware can still use it for a while longer.

    Leave a comment:


  • kpedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    And who will maintain the code in case the community is not interested? Dwarfs? Gnomes? Elves?
    If the community is not interested... then yes an elf will be your best bet. It is much more realistic that a fantasy creature can be relied upon to maintain a driver than the original vendor once the hardware reaches EOL haha!

    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    Many people gave up on Nouveau after the driver turned out to be extremely unstable and buggy. I'm one of them.
    The Nouveau driver didn't magically become unstable and buggy, people with the expectation of gaming just grab the nvidia blob directly. Those who don't game generally don't run into too many issues with Nouveau and keep it. In fact the Wayland experience is commonly cited to be better with Nouveau because of NVIDIA's non-standard choice of EGLStreams.

    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    For example, we had Intel ILO Gallium3D Driver, but it was abandoned. Literally no one is working on it right now.
    Currently, Intel is working on a new Gallium3D driver, but it will only support new GPUs.
    What if I want support for Intel GMA? Will you develop such a driver for me or should I wait for dwarfs?
    So what are you saying? You already stated that Intel wasn't going to work on the abandoned driver... so yes, wait for a dwarf. Just as reliable a solution it seems. XD

    Luckily with open-source, it is likely that one day this driver will be picked up or at least slightly maintained (i.e like S3 and SIS are).


    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    Instead of progress, we have regress here.
    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...-OpenGL-2-Drop
    Can you explain why open source model does not work here?
    I have already mentioned this OpenGL 2.x complexity in a previous post on this thread. I have real hands on experience with this issue since I use the i915 in my Z61t. With the environment variable fix mentioned earlier, it can run Blender with 2.1 OpenGL. Contrast this to the i915 Intel driver for Windows which is not even 2.0 but in fact 1.4 haha. Proof that no matter how complex open-source support gets... it is consistently better than proprietary for older hardware in the long run.

    Also try running the i915 on something new like Windows 10... there is no driver, no OpenGL, no DirectX. There is no proprietary model here. Open-source is the *only* solution.

    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    If I want to use e.g. Adobe Reader, Google Chrome, Slack, Steam, Unity Editor, WPS Office, etc., I have to switch to Windows, just because you say so?

    You can run what you want but if you find that proprietary software is the majority of software you run, then you personally would benefit from being within that ecosystem. Also if you use the Unity Editor for any professional work (which is rare for Unity because it is effectively a prosumer piece of shite) then you will be on the Windows platform because Linux is a 3rd class citizen and the tool is barely out of beta for it.

    Also, you use Adobe Reader... isn't that pretty old (and 32-bit only)? If you run WIndows, you can use a later, more secure version. This is what Adobe recommends since they removed it from their website. Last security update was 2013 haha. Use an open-source PDF reader if I were you (Xpdf or Evince are my recommendation). At least it would be less vulnerable

    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    Why do you use Linux at all? Isn't GNU/Hurd more kosher/legit?
    Not at all. GNU/Linux is *the* open-source operating system. Due to its fantastic hardware support, I use it on all platforms that cannot quite run FreeBSD.
    Last edited by kpedersen; 28 July 2019, 07:10 AM.

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  • the_scx
    replied
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Nah, an unstable Kernel ABI is a non-issue when we have driver source code.
    And who will maintain the code in case the community is not interested? Dwarfs? Gnomes? Elves?
    We have many open source projects that have been abandoned and no one wants to develop them. And even if someone wants to, he usually does not have the time or the right knowledge for it.
    For example, we had Intel ILO Gallium3D Driver, but it was abandoned. Literally no one is working on it right now.
    Currently, Intel is working on a new Gallium3D driver, but it will only support new GPUs.
    What if I want support for Intel GMA? Will you develop such a driver for me or should I wait for dwarfs?
    Instead of progress, we have regress here.
    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...-OpenGL-2-Drop
    Can you explain why open source model does not work here?

    There are more similar cases. Lima driver, after initial successes, stood in place literally for years.
    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...w-Changes-2016

    Believing that there will always be someone who will develop our favorite project is just wishful/magical thinking in the purest form.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    I know a lot of people sticking with Nouveau drivers now instead of the NVIDIA blobs. Not because they are very high in performance but because they are easy and convenient. This is a massive win!
    Many people gave up on Nouveau after the driver turned out to be extremely unstable and buggy. I'm one of them.
    Sorry, but I expect the driver will not generate artifacts or hang the computer (no access through SSH or TTY) while watching videos. This is bare minimum for me.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    If you want proprietary binaries and the latest product then Windows is the place for that.
    If I want to use e.g. Adobe Reader, Google Chrome, Slack, Steam, Unity Editor, WPS Office, etc., I have to switch to Windows, just because you say so?
    Why do you use Linux at all? Isn't GNU/Hurd more kosher/legit?
    Last edited by the_scx; 27 July 2019, 11:03 PM.

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  • kpedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
    We also had proprietary drivers for Linux, but we lost them (at least when it comes to the public releases). I believe that it would not happen if Linux provided a sane kABI, or at least graphics driver model.
    Nah, an unstable Kernel ABI is a non-issue when we have driver source code. Providing binary drivers is actually fairly niche and those who do so (i.e NVIDIA) simply have to spend time and resources maintaining their binaries. All whilst the open-source community sniggers a little because the practice is old fashioned and frowned upon.

    I know a lot of people sticking with Nouveau drivers now instead of the NVIDIA blobs. Not because they are very high in performance but because they are easy and convenient. This is a massive win!

    But don't take my word for it. Take the fact that we purposely have an unstable kernel API as proof. If you want proprietary binaries and the latest product then Windows is the place for that.
    Last edited by kpedersen; 27 July 2019, 02:43 PM.

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  • cybertraveler
    replied

    the_scx Interesting response. A bit too heavy handed to work on me. You might wanna be more subtle... and creative.

    Anyway. If there's something in there, I maintain what I said to you in my previous comment.

    Leave a comment:


  • the_scx
    replied
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Like I said, if KMS would be supported for the Savage
    As I said, xf86-video-s3 is the userspace X11 driver, so it will never support KMS. Kernel mode-setting might be supported only by a kernel driver. For the same reason, xf86-video-ati will never support it, although amdgpu already does it.
    I see that you like dreaming. And I try to be a realistic. VIA/S3G for years has been providing drivers for Windows for their GPUs. We also had proprietary drivers for Linux, but we lost them (at least when it comes to the public releases). I believe that it would not happen if Linux provided a sane kABI, or at least graphics driver model.
    You can still wait with the hope that someone will create a sane open source driver someday, but the reality is that many devices will disappear from the market (including the secondary market) before they gain a good Linux support. And almost no one invests resources in already dead hardware, even hobbyists.

    Leave a comment:


  • the_scx
    replied
    Comrade CT, your stallmanism sympathies are widely known here. I am afraid, however, that you have betrayed your ideals.
    I heard that you use a PC computer. Unfortunately, x86-64 is a proprietary ISA. You should burn this symbol of evil, and stop using computers completely, at least until you get open hardware RISC-V based device with the Vulkan accelerator.

    Please note that this is a proprietary forum, owned by Michael Larabel. Keep in mind that using proprietary service is just as bad as using proprietary software. It hurts your freedom, so you should remove your account here immediately!

    BTW: Is there any particular reason why you hate Linux so much? Because if you liked it, you would like it to be better and better. However, you still continue your crusade against proprietary software.

    Leave a comment:

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