KDE Plasma 5.12 Pushing For "An Awesome Release On Wayland"

[cj.wijtmans]

I doubt Martin will refuse the code, should NVidia offer to write and maintain NVidia support. So far NVidia has been too cheap to lift a finger. Buy Radeon.

nope he would refuse. He spent more time on writting on why he wont do it than it would have taken him to do it.

[R41N3R]

Do you game on NVidia hardware? Do regular screen recording & casting? Use redshift to reduce eye strain? Probably none the of them. These are _critical_ to me and I won't switch until ALL of them worked on Wayland.

I game with AMD and Intel graphics for a reason, both support free software. Redshift is nice, as far as I know it will be in the next Plasma release, so I can wait some more weeks. I don't do screen recording, but I use VNC/spice and remote VM's, something that need better support on Wayland. I'm with you, we need these applications to work and hence Martins request to start to use Plasma on Wayland. I'm sure that he doesn't want to force anybody, "use Wayland" is more like test and see how it works for you and if something is not make sure that there is at least a bug report. But sure, you are free to use whatever you want. I just wanted to understand your motivation. If you want to get some community feedback of how your KDE applications work on Wayland feel free to ask.

[Azrael5]

what's the problem between nvidia and wayland?

[DanL]

why should a community project like KDE waste time and resources fixing Nvidia's long-standing problems?

This is the typical angsty "F you, Nvidia" response. It is not just an Nvidia problem. See: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...y-API-Progress
and https://github.com/cubanismo/allocator

Instead of complaining in a forum, all Nvidia user can send bug reports to Nvidia.

Nvidia is already aware of the issue. Bug reports about it should go to /dev/null. If folks want to seriously help, they can contribute code (as you yourself suggested) to the aforementioned git repo .

[Khrundel]

1.) you said " yet another API used exclusively within wayland", I was just clarifying is used everywhere on the open stack

I've meant the new device memory allocation API, not GBM.

3.) Who finalized GBM? Mesa which translate into community + AMD + Intel + ARM providers(an linaro community) which probably account for more than +80% of all GPU used on Linux vs EGLStream that probably even Khronos didn't expect anyone to implement it ever and I mean probably the only existing implementation in use is the one from nVidia.

GBM is something Mesa uses. Some good enough subsystem, designed to... well, to allocate device memory buffers. Luckily, that is what wayland compositor needs, so weston developers decided just to take simplest solution, not caring for non-mesa drivers.

4.) Wayland is a protocol, you are right in the sense it does not depend too much on any underlaying implementation but the drivers do, the problem here with GBM vs EGLStreams is driver side implementation then compositor side support, is a lot of work and again no one has proved with actual DATA that EGLStream provide any benefit that justify such and undertaking outside wishful thinking and API theories(that again both sides have a bunch of pros and cons and neither do all properly--accepted by actual mesa and nVidia developers alike)

Actually, missing nvidia support is enough to bury GBM-only happy world.

5.) yes, "EGLStreams is just another EGL extension" but sadly the real world is not so forgiving and those buffers mapped by either GBM or EGLStreams will need translation layers because the drivers themselves use GBM while a theoretical EGLStream compositor will map their buffer using EGLStreams and the binding is different enough. In the best case scenario Mesa would need an higher level buffer management code that either map buffers on GBM or with EGLStream at runtime to keep things sane enough and probably certain kernel drivers will need "fixes" to support EGLstreams bindings properly but I'm unsure here how extensive that could end up being. I guess each driver developer will explain what will change if that ever happens.

Actually, current "middleground" API should wrap both EGLStreams and GBM, so there is nothing impossible to combine them. Which of them should be "common denominator"? Well, GBM was created to be a simple enough allocator for mesa, while EGLStreams was specifically designed to create a pipeline of differrent programs. I trust Khronos won't accept something clearly broken or tightly bound to one implementation.

[timofonic]

Yes, I know someone is supposedly working on a new solution. It was agreed at some point that neither GBM nor EGLStreams were optimal solutions and a new one should be created, but what happened after that is anyone's guess.

This makes me trust Nvidia even less than usual. This company surpasses themselves in deceiving the entire community, they are the best at that.

I don't trust they really are going to provide an AMAZING alternative at all, just a crappy prototype that will be released and ignored. Then maybe there will be some probability others will try to improve it to make it usable, then another small probability that this improved code will be used by all GPU drivers too.

I see it as a distraction strategy while they do more evil acts to make Nvidia monopoly even bigger. You know, EGLStreams are supported by GNOME...

If their idea is for every GPU driver: What about making it an open project from start and allow the participation and feedback from the entire community? Why are they doing it at closed doors? It makes no sense for me, nothing at all.

I'm a KDE developer and I have no plans to use Wayland any time soon. Screen recording? Redshift? I game quite a bit as well (using NVidia driver). There is zero incentives for me to switch to Wayland.

Are you a KDE developer? You must be a really very bad one, probably one of the worst "code monkey" types. I'm sure you are absolutely unable to implement those features at all and most of your code is pure crap.

It's pathetic a KDE developer complains about the lack of these features instead implementing them herself/himself, you are acting like a luser instead of as a developer

A rather big amount of Plasma developers is paid by Blue Systems. As I wrote, they also have corporate sponsoring behind it.

Blue Systems are a lot smaller than Red Hat.

I doubt that their sponsors pay as well as Red Hat, given the slower pace.

They can't. Red Hat is a lot bigger than Blue Systems and the rest of KDE sponsors united.

That's like comparing an elephant with an ant

1.) I applaud Martin decision to reject nVidia EGLStreams implementation simply because is very dangerous to allow nVidia to start imposing their own ways and is in no way superior to current GBM implementations from everyone else.

2.) For those "Gamers", RadeonSI in OpenGL mode is extremely close to nVidia's blob on most major games and in some cases faster(2015 is not anymore!!!) and for Vulkan(RADV) even agreeing with you is still subpar to nVidia's on performance wise is already compliant and is catching up fast and on Linux not many exists yet(ironically probably more than Windows tho)

3.) Is neither KDE or Gnome or any other DE problem, if you have a problem with that go and whine in nVidia's forum, after all is not like they knew exactly for 5 years how Wayland was going to be implemented and what GBM was all about and they changed their minds the last possible millisecond after literally every other driver GPU support GBM, oh wait!!!

4.) Nobody don't care if you are an nVidia fanboy that wanna game on Wayland go bother nVidia or lets say use gnome-wayland, is not like Linux suffer from lack DE choices

Nvidia does EVERYTHING to stay relevant, from still making proprietary drivers to not using certain subsystems and inventing their own crap. It's not new at all.

Nice for you and your mobile and ancient 610M, which I absolutely don't care about as a GTX 1070 owner. Maybe get some recent hardware before always telling "everything's fine" over and over again?

You and the rest of "PC master race" fascists are just morons that have no fucking idea, really.

Not everyone is able to get recent hardware due to their economic resources and I'm sure most of those are exponentially more intelligent than you


Nvidia forums? Asking in any other forum is a lot more productive than the Nvidia forums. You'll find lots more productive support in 4chan than the Nvidia forums, for example.

Are you seriously telling me my 610M outperforms your 1070? If so, then your problem isn't Nvidia. It lies somewhere else.

There, I think I fed you enough, I'm going to stop here and now.

It started funny, then it got boring. DFTT

Now I can say; FINALLY. This will be the real FACE OF LINUX OPERATING SYSTEM for Desktop (and for SMARTPHONE). PLASMA is the best desktop environment an operating system could integrate. Wayland will be able to make it the best of the best.

Are you sarcastically imitating the GNOME troll? I really see both GNOME and KDE sucks, just in different ways.

They should remove the giant loads of horrible and mega overbloated shit in both projects by sharing both frameworks and codebase in an agnostic way: No glib. No qt. No gtk. No gnome-* or kde-* stuff. No nasty layers. Very well documented code. Updated documentation. Multiplatform code. Ask for participation to any DE/WM project. Make Freedesktop initiative more useful and proactive...

Gnome on Wayland with NVidia does not support XWayland because NVidia refuses to add some needed feature to their drivers.

Even Nvidia sucks under GNOME, no surprise here

Do you game on NVidia hardware? Do regular screen recording & casting? Use redshift to reduce eye strain? Probably none the of them. These are _critical_ to me and I won't switch until ALL of them worked on Wayland.

Patches are welcome

This is the typical angsty "F you, Nvidia" response. It is not just an Nvidia problem. See: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...y-API-Progress
and https://github.com/cubanismo/allocator


Nvidia is already aware of the issue. Bug reports about it should go to /dev/null. If folks want to seriously help, they can contribute code (as you yourself suggested) to the aforementioned git repo .

Can a 30 commits "incubator project" with last commit dating 28 August 2017 be some kind of serious initiative? I don't think so! This is a joke from Nvidia, they can't be serious to cry and complain so much about GBM and make this crappy and pathetic effort to show their alternative is better. Are they smoking too much altered green stuff?

Nvidia corp doesn't actively participate in the community, they do mostly everything behind closed doors. And their use of a proprietary driver is just a tiny result of their extremely sectarian corporate culture. So yes, fuck Nvidia.

[Zoll]

Are you a KDE developer? You must be a really very bad one, probably one of the worst "code monkey" types. I'm sure you are absolutely unable to implement those features at all and most of your code is pure crap.

It's pathetic a KDE developer complains about the lack of these features instead implementing them herself/himself, you are acting like a luser instead of as a developer

Oh yeah, I just happen to be the lead developer of a quite crappy cross-platform KDE application for the past 15 years. What have you done other than troll on forums? Probably not even something we can refer to as crap.

And why would I submit patches? I have zero interest in Wayland and quite content with X, it's someone's else problem.

[duby229]

I game with AMD and Intel graphics for a reason, both support free software. Redshift is nice, as far as I know it will be in the next Plasma release, so I can wait some more weeks. I don't do screen recording, but I use VNC/spice and remote VM's, something that need better support on Wayland. I'm with you, we need these applications to work and hence Martins request to start to use Plasma on Wayland. I'm sure that he doesn't want to force anybody, "use Wayland" is more like test and see how it works for you and if something is not make sure that there is at least a bug report. But sure, you are free to use whatever you want. I just wanted to understand your motivation. If you want to get some community feedback of how your KDE applications work on Wayland feel free to ask.

Oh his applications -won't- work on wayland. He just said so. I wouldn't even worry about it if I was you. Xwayland will still exist for those folks that want to use his application. -he- might think that's optimal, but he's wrong about that. It's ok though, if ignorance is bliss then I'm sure he's very full of it. That's probably all he needs for himself, because it's obvious that's all he thinks about.

[duby229]

Despite what you guys might think Xorg not secure at all. It does enjoy obscurity, but don't mistake that for security. I can point at polkit as the perfect example of xorg's insecurity. If you're running both polkit and xorg anybody can get your root password. If linux had Windows marketshare I can only imagine how bad it would be. Definitely far worse than windows for damn sure, xorg has got to go.

EDIT: I've actually spoken with a security consultant about linux. He literally hates it and I can sorta understand why, complexity is really bad for security.

[R41N3R]

Oh yeah, I just happen to be the lead developer of a quite crappy cross-platform KDE application for the past 15 years. What have you done other than troll on forums? Probably not even something we can refer to as crap.

And why would I submit patches? I have zero interest in Wayland and quite content with X, it's someone's else problem.

And KStars runs magically on Wayland. I don't see the mouse until I click and hold the left mouse button, but other than that it seems to run well after my first look :-) I wrote a bug report for that, if you are on the bug tracker, maybe you know somebody to whom you can forward this bug. Please don't take it as an offence, I know some comments here have not been very friendly.