Why Enlightenment & Tizen Love Wayland

[schmalzler]

raster sry for hijacking this topic... I want to test Enlightenment on Wayland. Trying since 0.20, but never succeed... According to the docs I found it should be enough (for systemd-users) to go to a TTY, login and run enlightenment_start. But it seems enlightenment still defaults to X. At least I get error messages that "ecore_evas doesn't support the X11 software rendering". I am using Gentoo and basically enabled everything wayland related and disabled X support in efl and elementary. Before disabling X I got the error that ecore_X could not be initialized.
Am I missing something basic to get enlightenment working? I am on gentoo and just upgraded to e-0.20.5 and efl/elementary-1.17.0.

[raster]

raster sry for hijacking this topic... I want to test Enlightenment on Wayland. Trying since 0.20, but never succeed... According to the docs I found it should be enough (for systemd-users) to go to a TTY, login and run enlightenment_start. But it seems enlightenment still defaults to X. At least I get error messages that "ecore_evas doesn't support the X11 software rendering". I am using Gentoo and basically enabled everything wayland related and disabled X support in efl and elementary. Before disabling X I got the error that ecore_X could not be initialized.
Am I missing something basic to get enlightenment working? I am on gentoo and just upgraded to e-0.20.5 and efl/elementary-1.17.0.

ooooh. i think our tests still test if evas has an x11 rendering target - so you wanty BOTH x11 AND wayland support built into efl. for now you need both. e itself just wont start unless it passes this test. iut's an old one for sanity checks long ago to make sure efl is vaguely well configured. so dont disable x. just enable wayland.

[coder111]

...The crowds that go "oh oh but Wayland isn't a remote display system therefore it sucks and we should never drop X11" kinds of people....

I'm one of those people I guess. Having ability to run remote applications easily is a killer feature in X11 and I use at least twice-weekly.

I'm not saying "never drop X11", but I will insist that Wayland needs to provide some kind of remote-application capability. If it's based on VNC or what I don't care, but it needs to work. And I should be able to both run just 1 app (ssh -X) or grab the entire screen and do full remote desktop/terminal server thing.

[schmalzler]

ooooh. i think our tests still test if evas has an x11 rendering target - so you wanty BOTH x11 AND wayland support built into efl. for now you need both. e itself just wont start unless it passes this test. iut's an old one for sanity checks long ago to make sure efl is vaguely well configured. so dont disable x. just enable wayland.

Ok, thx, but now it fails (as already said) with

ESTART: 0,04470 [0,00000] - E_Actions Init
ESTART: 0,04488 [0,00018] - E_Actions Init Done
ESTART: 0,04490 [0,00001] - E_Powersave Init
ESTART: 0,04490 [0,00000] - E_Powersave Init Done
ESTART: 0,04490 [0,00000] - E_Screensaver Init
ESTART: 0,04490 [0,00000] - E_Screensaver Init Done
ESTART: 0,04491 [0,00000] - Screens Init
ESTART: 0,04491 [0,00000] -     screens: client
ESTART: 0,04491 [0,00001] -     screens: win
ESTART: 0,04493 [0,00001] - E_Xkb Init
ESTART: 0,04493 [0,00000] - E_Xkb Init Done
ESTART: 0,04493 [0,00000] - Compositor Init
<<<< Enlightenment Error >>>>
Enlightenment cannot initialize Ecore_X!

LOAD WL_WL MODULE
ERR<24090>:ecore_wl2 lib/ecore_wl2/ecore_wl2_display.c:543 ecore_wl2_display_connect() No Wayland Display Running
ERR<24090>:ecore_evas modules/ecore_evas/engines/wayland/ecore_evas_wayland_shm.c:229 ecore_evas_wayland_shm_new_internal() Failed to connect to Wayland Display (null)
Could not create ecore_evas_drm canvasLOAD WL_X11 MODULE
X11 connect failed!
<<<< Enlightenment Error >>>>
Enlightenment cannot create a compositor.

E: Begin Shutdown Procedure!
ERR<24090>:e src/bin/e_msgbus.c:84 _e_msgbus_request_name_cb() Could not request bus name
E - PID=24089, valgrind=0

As I said: starting from plain TTY using systemd.

[mjog]

I'm one of those people I guess. Having ability to run remote applications easily is a killer feature in X11 and I use at least twice-weekly.

I'm not saying "never drop X11", but I will insist that Wayland needs to provide some kind of remote-application capability. If it's based on VNC or what I don't care, but it needs to work. And I should be able to both run just 1 app (ssh -X) or grab the entire screen and do full remote desktop/terminal server thing.

If you're going to comment, do try to keep up: Remote Wayland Preview, GNOME 3.20 / Fedora 24 Is Shaping Up Well For Wayland

[tigerroast]

...it was intended as information to the far less "into graphics on Linux" people who could benefit from clarification of how things actually work.

I was being flippant about the "We want Wayland because it's awesome. Let's explain why it's awesome" nature of the presentation. Although I don't appreciate what you're implying with this sentence:

So take it as it is intended - for the more average people who don't spend their lives focusing on graphics, compositors, WMs, toolkits etc. to get a bit of insight as to what Wayland really brings, why that is important to Tizen, and some of the things that were done.

Methinks Google can provide as much info on those various topics as lifelong dedication towards studying them does.

Also remember slide decks are not verbatim scripts. They are talking points and diagrams. What was SAID often is far more than the simple content on the slides. So watch the video when it gets uploaded.

I think the nature of it being an actual presentation would imply that there's more to glean than what was being provided with the slides, but thanks for clearing that up anyway.

[raster]

I'm one of those people I guess. Having ability to run remote applications easily is a killer feature in X11 and I use at least twice-weekly.

I'm not saying "never drop X11", but I will insist that Wayland needs to provide some kind of remote-application capability. If it's based on VNC or what I don't care, but it needs to work. And I should be able to both run just 1 app (ssh -X) or grab the entire screen and do full remote desktop/terminal server thing.

As everyone who does anything wayland related keeps saying: "This isn't a WAYLAND PROTOCOL thing to solve. It's up to compositors to do/figure out".

[raster]

I was being flippant about the "We want Wayland because it's awesome. Let's explain why it's awesome" nature of the presentation. Although I don't appreciate what you're implying with this sentence:

What am I implying? That it's intended for average people who don't spend their lives doing graphics? What implications? That you are stupid if you read this or attended it? You may want to re-evaluate your sensitivity. If you are reading this into that simple statement. Nothing is implied. It's right up front and center. If you are not "into this stuff" then it likely is for you as something of interest - otherwise not. If you take offense at something this simple, then I'm not going to tiptoe around all the "possible hidden meanings" that could be twisted out of almost anything anyone ever writes. There's no intention of an implication, nor is there any unless you brought it with you.

The Linux graphics world is rather small. The majority of developers never do anything with graphics nor care about how it works - they do server-side. The majority of users by a vast margin have no clue how their screen is filled with content. It's magic to them that they just ignore. They have other things to fill their days with. They complain when something goes wrong, but rarely would have the slightest insight as to why as they have no background. It's not their thing. This is normal. If you happen to be in the small community that does graphics (on Linux - beyond a superficial level - i.e. are involved in WM/Compositor and/or toolkit development) or have taken the time out to research Wayland and related things then this would not have been aimed to you - it may be obvious.

But it's a simple repackaging of the basics of why Wayland is good and what products care about. They don't care about remote display. They care about tear-free efficient rendering. Security. In fact the majority of the efficiencies in Wayland we managed to do in X11 (zero-copy etc.) on Tizen with some careful driver work, using libdrm directly from software rendering to get zero copy swaps without GL, and the way client windows are reparented means we can devolve to just swaps even with decorations (server-side). We couldn't cure the round-trips for setup without fundamentally breaking X11 or some nasty bugs (like buffer size is controlled by display server, at the request of WM and client will be rendering for/to a size it LAST thought the size was, which may be incorrect by now etc. - yes we could have cured that by forcing syncs between all 3 every time which would be incompatible with most toolkits/apps and sluggish ... I can go on), and we can't really ever cure the security of X11 (without breaking it).

Methinks Google can provide as much info on those various topics as lifelong dedication towards studying them does.

The number of times a day that I have answered questions that could have been solved by simply googling, reading some docs... is amazing. People don't - not much in any case.

I think the nature of it being an actual presentation would imply that there's more to glean than what was being provided with the slides, but thanks for clearing that up anyway.

A large number of people often barely even read the title, let alone the content when commenting on something. When the content you can read is missing the in-person stuff... You're making judgments based on incomplete information.

[raster]

Could not create ecore_evas_drm canvas

That's your key problem - the rest is just a chain of issues that come from here. No drm module for ecore_evas? (PREFIX/lib/ecore_evas/engines/ <- drm dir here?) PREFIX/lib/evas/modules/engines/ <- drm dir here too? the README.wayland in enlightenment's src explains what to enable in efl and in e's build. i don't know if gentoo's ebuild did.

if it is here - perhaps permissions? do you have permission to devices? we do make use of systemd... it does work fine on arch for me with the build options as documented in the readme above... export EINA_LOG_LEVEL=4 will give you more extensive info logging as to what is being done...

[drSeehas]

... wayland is a modern efficient compositor ...

Wayland is "only" a protocol not a compositor. Enlightenment is a Wayland compositor as is Weston.