KDE Developers Continue To Be Frustrated With Canonical

[LinuxGamer]

False. We've been over this over and over again. The only reason why Mir seems like they're "faster" than Wayland is because Canonical is piggybacking on the 5 years of hard groundwork done by the Wayland devs, without which both Wayland and Mir would be impossible to implement.

Also, Jolla's Sailfish phone, which uses Wayland, will be on the market sooner than any Ubuntu phone. At this rate, probably even Tizen phones (also using Wayland) will beat Ubuntu to the punch. So that kind of shoots down that theory.

Tizen's in the Market now in japan and cars etc i hate posting on the Phoronix forums so many Canonical/Ubuntu PR reps here and i bet most of them are paid you know its all about damage control look at the 1st 3 pages

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/25/first-tizen-tablet-launches-in-japan/

[LinuxGamer]

Mir still develops faster for a number of reasons:
Mir have more hired developers working on it than Wayland.
Mir is actually a display server where Wayland is just a protocol, Gnome, KDE or whatever needs to write their own display servers that uses the Wayland protocol.
Canonical doesn?t really care about API stability that much as the develop both Mir and Unity so they can rush things in and then change them when the API
aren't good enough.

Mir has fewer developers also Mir is missing the base for developers to even work on it and no API stability is a no go for companies to develop on in other words Mir if just a huge waste of time we have a Android and Apple why do we need Ubuntu or Canonical we don't

[Pajn]

Mir has fewer developers also Mir is missing the base for developers to even work on it and no API stability is a no go for companies to develop on in other words Mir if just a huge waste of time we have a Android and Apple why do we need Ubuntu or Canonical we don't

Sorry, I have a hard time understanding you post but I'll try.

Canonical pays people to work on Mir.
As for API stability, I have seen no other companies that would be interested even with a stable API,
all other DEs are more or less community driven.

What does Android or Apple have to do with Ubuntu and Canonical?

[LinuxGamer]

Sorry, I have a hard time understanding you post but I'll try.

Canonical pays people to work on Mir.
As for API stability, I have seen no other companies that would be interested even with a stable API,
all other DEs are more or less community driven.

What does Android or Apple have to do with Ubuntu and Canonical?

E19 is samsung driven and Canonical pays a hand full to work on Mir

good to point out nobody wants Mir or needs Mir

uTouch the Catholic phone?

[felipe]

I don't want to make personal attacks but the post of martin was more emotional rather than technical... It could be done by a angry teenager XD. Somebody have comment "grow up" and then he has closed the comments...

[dee.]

Mir still develops faster for a number of reasons:
Mir have more hired developers working on it than Wayland.
Mir is actually a display server where Wayland is just a protocol, Gnome, KDE or whatever needs to write their own display servers that uses the Wayland protocol.
Canonical doesn?t really care about API stability that much as the develop both Mir and Unity so they can rush things in and then change them when the API
aren't good enough.

Those are (bad) reasons why Mir "should", theoretically, in someone's opinion, develop faster. They're not evidence of Mir development actually happening faster. In order to give "reasons" for Mir development happening faster, you would actually have to show this to be the case. You're putting the cart before the horse here.

Also, Wayland devs are experienced with the graphics stack, they have the skills and knowledge required to do all the work required for a modern graphics system, which the Mir devs lack. All the Mir devs have done so far is piggyback on the work done by others - particularly, Wayland devs.

Wayland is good exactly because it is a protocol. Canonical could easily have written their own Wayland compositor and saved themselves a ton of problems. Now, they have to deal with all these problems, and since they're too stubborn to back away, it'll probably end badly for Ubuntu.

[LinuxGamer]

I don't want to make personal attacks but the post of martin was more emotional rather than technical... It could be done by a angry teenager XD. Somebody have comment "grow up" and then he has closed the comments...

hey not personal but Fuck You

[mrugiero]

I don't get all the bitching. If Ubuntu wants KWin with Mir, why not get involved in KWin. Ask KWin guys politely for a branch where a Ubuntu dev would maintain the Mir bits. If this works well and there is visible commitment, the branch might be merged with master. I don't see any technical reasons to reject that.

I don't, either. But that was never proposed. What was said that will be rejected is patches. A branch with a maintainer should be a different story. Anyway, I don't see a technical reason to want KWin running on Mir, either.

Do you honestly expect that in 2013 a search app isn't going to search the internet? And even if someone did think that, surely they would realise after they used it for the first time? It's a shame that you engage in pointless tribalism with your remarks about "Ubuntu fans", fyi I currently use Debian, Fedora and Ubuntu, and previously others. But to answer your point about Android: guess what - the search function on Windows phone also searches the internet. And nobody is surprised, because that is what users expect these days.

I don't know, I don't use search apps at all, I know exactly where my things are; but as I said, this could be seen as a violation to privacy, and comparing to the NSA is still way too much. Personally, I don't care a lot about my privacy, but people who care should be respected on it.
Also, I didn't mean to enter into tribalisms, but to point out that people DO say the same about Android and Google. The ones complaining on this kind of discussion of Google being treated different (hint: they aren't, and the fact they don't talk about them in Mir related threads just points out the fact Google and Canonical are unrelated; pointing out that others fails too will not fix your failures) are mostly Ubuntu fans. Maybe I should have said Mir fans, since overall I consider myself an Ubuntu (as in the community in general, not the flavor; I use Xubuntu) fan, and this debate is mostly ignited by Mir and not Ubuntu overall (IMO).
I just disagree on all this Mir thing, and I seriously think MS is being too aggressive with his comments and expectations on others (the latter includes mostly the whole company).
Oh, and Windows do get criticized for hurting privacy, too.

Again with the pointless tribalism? I've never said that any other DE should support Mir, but on the other hand, if someone wrote the code, and I was the maintainer, I would probably add it. If it didn't work out in the future, then I would remove it. I'm sure the Linux kernel has plenty of code for projects that Linus isn't personally a fan of. Your argument for only one solution is like asking: What's the reason for Linux to support alternative file systems? Don't most just do the same thing?... Different developments bring different technical, legal and social benefits and tradeoffs. Sometimes you get ext, sometimes you get reiserfs, but you will never find out which is which if you don't let it happen.

Again: when you accept a patch, you become responsible for the code, at least in the eye of users. If you remove it, you are the bad guy who cuts support out. Just watch the thread on Fedora dropping support for older graphic cards. If you let it rot, you are the bad, lazy maintainer. That's why I'd rather sympathize with Martin here. Interestingly, I don't like their DE. It doesn't fit me, period. The same way, Unity doesn't fit me, period.
And again, it is not tribalism. There are people clearly defending Canonical's view on the subject, people clearly defending Red Hat's, Intel's, Wayland's, and people who are only watching. I'm mostly watching, although I do like Wayland better than Mir.
I'm not arguing for only one solution at all. If that was the case, I'd just say one should not even have multiple DEs to start off. What I said is simpler: you don't need other display servers for KWin. It changes nothing for KDE users, aside from Kubuntu having to have an extra package, so I don't see why Canonical developers seem to make such a big deal on having KDE support for Mir. You don't need Unity to support Wayland either, and if someone would expect Canonical to port it to Wayland just because, I would point out that they have no reason now, they have their in house solution, they are happy with it, and it shouldn't hurt compatibility with apps.

It's different in case of Debian, because Debian is Ubuntu's upstream. They just fix the issue in Debian and that's it.

I'm not sure if it's always that way. Sometimes having a different stack (Debian stable usually has way older packages than Ubuntu, which is based in unstable or testing, I don't remember which) has a big effect on bugs.

If anyone is gay, it's probably this Jono Bacon guy.

He will do anything to please his boss Shuttleworth, including getting down on his knees every night to relieve Mark from his stress.

Are we done with the stupid "X is gay" now?
First, making ad hominems doesn't make you sound smart.
Second, do you consider actually important what people like to do in private? If so, maybe you are more like Canonical, Google, Microsoft and the NSA you'd think.

This same comment goes for everyone on the "X is gay" off topic. I'd report all of you, but I'm too lazy to look for all of the posts.

I hardly see that as a FOSS problem. Afaik Microsoft is the bastion of closed-source and yet they fail miserably from time to time (e.g. Vista, 8?) I agree that NIH does represent a problem for the resource-limited open-source community but sometimes having an alternative is good too. You can pick whatever you like and it won't feel like you're just changing the wallpaper, it's a completely different world and approach to an OS/DE. Mir can have its place in the FOSS and Canonical is free to do whatever works out for them.

The problem here is this, everyone assumes Canonical to be the daemon and all that, this is why there was this rebuke from Mark. In truth, all parties are responsible one way or the other. The guys behind Wayland are responsible for the very slow development of the protocol. This is why Canonical just went with their own stuff, they wanted to get on the mobile front sooner rather than later. I'm not saying that designing and creating a display protocol is supposed to happen in 1 year, I just think there was a gross miscommunication between the parties and an overoptimistic FOSS community, in other words, nobody thought of a worst case scenario. I think Mark bet on the fact that from the beginning hardware vendors would support his project, unfortunately we know how that went about. To a certain degree I believe Mark is regretful now but he's not just going to cancel this project because it will show doubt in the management of the company about what direction it should take and that will impact the relationship with the investors.

So there you have it, my conspiracy theory :P

While I agree that all the parts are partly in fault, there are some things that aren't completely true in your post.
The first one is the "slow development of the protocol". The protocol wasn't the one taking up most of the work, but the ground work needed at the driver level. Also, I'm not sure what you base your assertion that a protocol should happen in one year on. The miscommunication, as far as we can know, happened because Canonical didn't share their concerns and needs. I agree that nobody ever thought of the worst case scenario. Well, aside from some developers after Mir was announced, most of whom seem overly pessimistic (Martin, or myself before informing a bit better, seemed to have thought everything was going down the drain).
I don't think MS is regretful. He might, when Mir is really ready, if it fails. If it succeeds, at least to some degree, he will not regret, even if it leads to most of the FLOSS community losing respect for him, as his main concern is probably making Ubuntu profitable, and it seems he is unable to do that without leveraging the CLA with phone carriers.

I think that cause of the conflict in reality is rooted in the pre-mir relation of KDE and Canonical.

1. MS launches a new OS, goes for Gnome instead of KDE3 -> first disappointment
2. Canonical makes the first inhouse developments (like Ubuntu One) Gnome-only -> another resentment of KDE
3. Canonical cuts down official Kubuntu support service -> KDE declined again

-> Canonical has no interest in KDE until now, because they wanted to focus on one DE

Now they develop a new display server, want it adopted widely to get more maintainers etc and ask for support in KDE.
No suprise, they were sent away, because of "technical reasons".
Although trying to be helpful with getting the Mir support done, Martin has still no interest.
Instead he feels a pressure and starts whining.

How is Mir supposed to get a multi distro solution if DE's decline the Mir support because it's a single distro solution.
Chicken Egg problem.

The only thing Canonical can do is getting Unity 8 and Mir done with requiring as few patches as possible to the existing stack (drivers, gtk, ...) (which is btw. nearly impossible). Without these patches, both get packaged into other distros like Arch or Debian. Then it's maybe supported by Kwin, if there are no other "technical reasons" or a bad "cla". All in all, they have no chance for adoption.

It is what it is. Canonical wants its own display server, they have to do it alone, like Apple or Google did. They should concentrate on Unity and Mir now, get their stuff done. Let things consolidate, maybe it's working out and it gets into other distros. Maybe they doing their own distribution and that is what Linux needs to become successful. I mean all the hanky-panky of Gnome and KDE and other distros did lead to nothing on the desktop...
Every ~10 years, the DE start reinventing the wheel again (KDE3 -> KDE4 -> KDE5, gnome2 -> 3), but they don't get the real adoption problems done. GTK breaks it's API every minor release and KDE ignores it's most hated bugs and Plasma Active is not taking-off. Just be honest about it.

But maybe it's just my view & 2 cents. Hopefully SteamOS can change a bit more on the desktop side. Watching the desktop development over many years on Linux is somehow said to see, especially all the hate / mud-slinging / hidden corporating against each other.

The CLA is irrelevant for extern projects. It makes really no difference, and that's why they don't care Qt has a similar one. It is relevant for contributing to the actual codebase, not for using it as is.
On the "KDE resentment" side, I think you are wrong. Mostly, because on day zero Ubuntu was probably considered just another distro. Resenting a random distribution for not using your desktop is like resenting a fly for not being attracted by your garbage. They had no way to know it would be successful, and they had their own flavor using KDE anyway (and back then it was officially supported by Canonical). Other than that, I think your post mostly makes sense (although I'll have to put a little bit more thought to know if I agree with you).

Canonical pays people to work on Mir.

Red Hat, Intel and Collabora pays people to work on Wayland.
Red Hat pays people to work on GNOME, which has a working tech demo on Wayland.
IIRC, Tizen is funded by Samsung and Intel.

As for API stability, I have seen no other companies that would be interested even with a stable API

Seriously? Do you know of any company that likes having to port their applications every few months?

all other DEs are more or less community driven.

AFAIK, GNOME is not that much community driven, as it has strong influences from Red Hat. I don't know about KDE. LXDE and XFCE are completely community driven, AFAIK.

What does Android or Apple have to do with Ubuntu and Canonical?

Well, the in house solutions and the peculiar ways they handle open source, probably. For sure, the in house solutions.
Google does contribute a lot back, though, through the GSoC. Apple does somewhat contribute, too, although only on their projects, IIRC, kind of like Canonical.

I don't want to make personal attacks but the post of martin was more emotional rather than technical... It could be done by a angry teenager XD. Somebody have comment "grow up" and then he has closed the comments...

Yes, the latest ones, they are pretty much teenager. The first ones, where he explains why he doesn't want to support Mir, are not.

[Alex Sarmiento]

The attitude of these group of KDE developers is very disappointing .

[Alex Sarmiento]

Red Hat, Intel and Collabora pays people to work on Wayland.
Red Hat pays people to work on GNOME, which has a working tech demo on Wayland.
IIRC, Tizen is funded by Samsung and Intel.

Don't people see the obvious conflict of interests that is going on here?