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Originally posted by alexThunder
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damn BO$$
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why do you keep saying enduser? any enduser is going to build his or her own "machines" any ways you talking about alienware thats a joke any ways
damn BO$$ -
I do the same everytime I order a new machine. However, people like us are not the majority, who make a difference on market share and impact.Originally posted by synaptix View Post
Yeah, sure. The majority is building their own machines and setting them up. Maybe the majority of Linux users, but not the majority of average pc users.Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Postwhy do you keep saying enduser? any enduser is going to build his or her own "machines" any ways you talking about alienware thats a joke any ways
damn BO$$Last edited by alexThunder; 20 July 2013, 01:35 PM.Comment
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well in the case of microsoft let me specify a bit:
Microsoft have hyperV as virtualization solution and their clients are requiring proper linux support (which is good) but by that time was 0(for experience at some client was like running Linux and non-accel qemu), microsoft client started to move to Citrix and VMware, so they had 2 choices:
1.) make some half ass job and create an blob for redhat/novell
2.) go opensource and upstream proper linux native driver for their plataform that any linux can use <-- they choosed this one as amazing as it sounds
at first they send an horrible mess of a patch that made kernel mailing people cry blood and was blatantly rejected with all the whistles but the microsoft developers associated with this patch were smart and asked politely for help and guidance since they wanted to do a good job to provide Tier 1 support for linux and they really weren't familiar with such high coding standards. to make story short community responded nicely and they guys made it to staging some months later with the help of system maintainers and reviewers and other kernel guru[is a freaking lot of LOC btw] and this guys still actively maintain the code and add features and even posted a nice blog of how nice was to work with kernel developers and how much care they take of their code quality.Comment
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no it was like a under a week ago or around on a HD6950 and Nvdia 660ti how old is your card? on the Opensource Drivers using Ubuntu's patch setOriginally posted by mrugiero View PostComment
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ok i cleared a bit the hyperV case now canonical
Canonical normally never do the "help me do this right", they just go posting horrible patches that normally break other stuff since they don't care and then obviously get rejected then canonical keep it downstream <-- this is pretty much the story of canonical and opensurce
and in this particular case Wayland is the proper FSF/Xorg foundation replacement for X.org that is being discussed and supported by everybody but canonical, wayland patches will be used by everyone, Mir on the other hand is canonical exclusive that won't be used widely for a while[at least until mesa 10 minimal].
Even if ubuntu reach a 50% market share[that it won't as i said linux need more than wayland/mir for mass adoption] Wayland will still be "The Linux" graphical server and will be supported by every linux app until its end of life.
for wayland is irrelevant is Mir is succesful or not and wayland could be irrelevant for Mir if canonical finds a way of keep the massive downstream patchsets working.
Of course canonical can always pull an "Android" and make an Ubuntu SDK for Ubuntu only apps that work in desktop and phones <-- i think this is their goal and like Apple be their own island and both happy and GNU/Linux will keep their way as nothing happened.
another scenario could be RedHat get convinced it can make it to the desktop in this age and pull those billions they have around and go all force since they have power enough to grab many HW manufacturers by the balls
either way until late 2014 nobody knowsComment
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most users get there PC's from walmart or bestbuy etc most endusers build them from kits or parts from newegg amazon etc there are only 2 or 3 End User shops i know that do well even walmart sell ASUS funny part is how many offline retellers you see selling Ubuntu in the US none you do see them selling RHEL Debian Etc you happy BO$$Originally posted by alexThunder View PostComment
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"Hostile" is NOT an "adequate classification for forks in general". You may think that, but that is simply not the case. Take Wine for example, there are a few forks, some of which actively participate in Wine Development. Sure, Cedega/Transgaming were somewhat hostile, but you can't even try to tell me that Etersoft@Wine, Muse Research, etc are hostile ~ because they aren't. In fact, the guys from Etersoft are pretty heavy contributors... Obviously, i made no mention of Code Weavers - since they drive Wine Development and their commercial version isn't _that_ different than upstream/vanilla wine.... My point is forks by default shouldn't by default be considered "Hostile" because sometimes, there are reasons to fork a project, that has merit, be them technical or otherwise...Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
Ithink that these projects are better off letting Canonical support themselves <since Canonical is going in their own direction, anyway>. This also allows these other projects to continue to focus on what they have already chosen to support and work towards, which isn't Mir.Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
By Canonical's decision(s), it is fragmented. ie: the community has no real say in it, in that way. When i say they should just maintain those patches themselves, my comment has nothing to do with fragmentation. In the past (and probably presently) Canonical has been notorious for making patches that upstream's often reject because of their poor quality / other technical reasons and/or things like distro-specific patches, etc - why in the hell should they be asked to accept them? ... Do you really think they should lower their standard of review process / accepting patches just for Canonical's benefit? <while possibly at the determent of others, even?>... I'm sorry, but that logic doesn't make sense to me, if that is the case on your part. (?)
You're naive to think that Canonical isn't interested in isolating themselves, they are. there are reasons to break toolchains, control/duplicate any project that you can't control, create CLA, etc ... they are business reasons and Canonical wants a competitive advantage over everyone else, while still getting the larger community to do all of the heavy lifting ~ which is also the reason "they just don't seem to bother much", on top of not wanting to payback into the projects they rely on...Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
System76 and others as you say are small.... As For Dell, please stop pretending, being ignorant of the fact, or just straight lying! that Dell only supports Ubuntu (*in terms of linux support*), that is utter BS. I can call up DELL right now <if i felt like spending the money> and have them ship me RHEL *pre-installed* on an "officially linux supported" H/W that they offer. Here are the (linux) partners that DELL has: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/...tions-partnersOriginally posted by alexThunder View Post
Out of those, RH / Oracle probably drive their linux-side business, not Ubuntu.
Dell has supported Several Distros officially for many years, and tries to support others "unofficially", as well; http://linux.dell.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
HP (like DELL) also supports multiple flavors of linux and Unix and i would bet that in both cases; Ubuntu is not a big driver in sales for either. ASUS i don't know about, but am too lazy to look up. But they probably also support Red Hat / Oracle / Suse because there is more money in that than Ubuntu.Originally posted by linux.dell.com
this is a stupid argument. 1st off, MS dominates the PC market for historical reasons that began with the IBM & Gary Kildall/CP-M business deal gone wrong / MS-DOS being sold at a fraction of the price, and later with MS/Windows own shadiness with IBM/OS2. After that MS has largely kept their ground via unfair business practices, software patents, buying up software companies, stealing code (which they have been busted for multiple times), smear campaigns, vendor-lock in, etc... 2nd: I never said it was only about having good code; what i was saying is that we aren't too far away, from the time when most "end-user type distros", will have the plumbing underneath <provided by upstream>, that alot of the typical problems that have historically made linux suck for "the masses" are probably going to evaporate / be a non-issue in the long run, with or without Canonical's help.Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
At that point, when most people could just and install and use XYZ distro and has the software they need - you will see a lot of people migrate to linux.... we just aren't there yet, imho. not for desktop Linux ~ and Ubuntu isn't changing that and can't change that, since they don't do any of the work required.
Again, Ubuntu != Linux. Your question is nonsensical. You are essentially asking "if canonical fails, who will bring Ubuntu to the masses?" ~ and the answer to that question is no one, probably... Canonical isn't going to be able to take over the "Desktop OS business for linux", as you call it. That would actually require being able to work with others in that eco-system twards the same goals, being able to do "some heavy-lifting" in terms of contributions and also having the respect of those developers whom's projects you are relying on / working with. <which they appear to not have/do>... It's cool, i get it, you buy into Canonical's "linux for the masses" hype... but sorry i don't. Gnu/Linux won't be successful on the Desktop for a while, and if/when that does happen ~ it's not going to because of Marketing buzzwords and hype, that may play into it to some degree, but it actually be because the OS / underlying plumbing has matured to that point. <ie: all other attempts at making the Linux Desktop a success (including Canonical's previous attempts) have failed because the Technology wasn't ready...Originally posted by alexThunder View PostLast edited by ninez; 20 July 2013, 02:09 PM.Comment
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his real name is BO$$ the Linux Desktop has maybe 1 year to go befor its more Mainline ready then Windows aka full Wayland SupportOriginally posted by ninez View PostComment
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Isn't BO$$ a Windows Guy??? ...which i am *NOT* at all.Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
My comment that you quoted was a reflection of reality, all previous attempts (including Canonical's) have been failures. That isn't to say, Linux won't be successful eventually on the Desktop (obviously, i want it to be), but it's my personal belief that we aren't there yet. ~ which i think is fair to note/say... and that doesn't make me BO$$ for pointing that out <it does make you a child for going that way though>. So if you actually have something intelligent and relevant to say <which your above comment is neither> than by all means - enlighten me...
Wayland isn't the only determining factor, either ~ So i am not sure why you are proclaiming that it is? <explain in detail?>
...because from where i am sitting, while Wayland is very important - there are lots of common problems that face end-users which have nothing to do with xorg(or potentially Wayland or Mir). So (for you) to claim Wayland is the solution, just seems silly to me. I'm curious, have you even used Wayland, and if so ~ how did your experience with Wayland convince you it was an MS killer?Comment
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Not exactly. They shouldn't lower their standards but instead help Canonical improving their patches to a suitable quality instead of fighting them. I know, this is asked for too much, but at the end, the overall benefit would outweight the question of who's actually right.Originally posted by ninez View Post
Yes, and they're in competition with who? They're not seriously competing with other Linux distros, as they're still a minority/niche. They're aiming for the masses, i.e. Google, MS, Apple. I really don't see Canonical's business modell threatend by other Linux distrosOriginally posted by ninez View Post
Is that, what they're selling directly to end users?Originally posted by ninez View Post
I know of Microsoft's dirty tricks, but, well, that's marketing. I wonder how you'd want to beat that without someone doing the marketing for Linux. Technically, the Linux Desktop is in a good shape - it could be better, granted, but for a lots of users (maybe even for the majority?), the desktop is sufficient as it is right now (which practically is: browsing, mails and some office stuff). Still, if no one is ~selling~ that, how should it spread among the masses? They won't adapt to that themselves out of nowhere. You may wait forever to see that happening.Originally posted by ninez View Post
A lot of people? What do you mean by that? another 0.5%? It won't be much more. Note, that most people don't even know what Linux is. Just because there's a super duper distro somewhere on the net won't make them ditch the OS they already have and know for something they're completely new to. Especially not, if they're not even capable of setting anything up, which goes beyond downloading something from an App Store.Originally posted by ninez View Post
You really assume too much of the average users. The majority won't do anything on their own instead of using what other people already have set up for them.
Small correction: "if canonical fails, who will bring Ubuntu to the masses?" it'd rather be: "if canonical fails, who will bring Linux Desktop to the masses?". You're right, buzzwords alone won't help that much, a mature technology is required. But history of (technological) bestsellers clearly shows, that quality of the products is barely related to it's success. Sure, it's hard to sell total garbage, but if your stuff somewhat works and you have by far the better marketing, you'll win the race. That's not a surprise, since people generally don't know that much about what they're using - they can hardly determine, which product actually is the better one. If it's really the better product selling the most units, that's a coincidence :POriginally posted by ninez View Post
Furthermore, Linux (or Ubuntu at least) won't take over the Desktop so soon, that's probably right. However, it's influence is increasing. Within a year, we got support from the Unity Engine, which will results in a lot of indie games for Linux. Beyond that, we also have a huge support among Crowdfunded games (mostly indies, mostly of them due to Unity, but also AAA, see Star Citizen - not yet confirmed, but you may have heard of Crytek's Linux plans
) and Valve going serious about Linux. Sure, that would have been possible without Canonical, but would it have been likely? You may argue about this, but just look at which distro they're focusing and why (see the slides on Linux provided by The Farm 51 if you want an answer).
I'm not sure, but I think he's referring to me. Anyway, if that makes him feel better, just let him.Originally posted by ninez View PostLast edited by alexThunder; 20 July 2013, 03:05 PM.Comment
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