Mir Still Causing Concerns By Ubuntu Derivatives

[Mike Frett]

Hmmm

I think a lot of you are forgetting when you're talking about using a Mint base etc. The Software Center is the entire pull for Ubuntu. You can't use the Software Center on other distros except the Official ones (Xubuntu-Kubuntu etc) It doesn't work at all on Mint. Some guy (Mint Forums) was trying to install a game he bought on Ubuntu, in Mint through an install of the Software Center; but it didn't work. They would cease to be Official Distros and people would abandon them. Of course we have Steam now too and other Games coming out whose only Support will be for Ubuntu. Devs have pretty much settled the fragmentation issue and I know it's difficult for some of you to swallow.

Now some of you are going to come in here and ask me what's wrong with included package managers for Debian/Redhat etc. What's wrong is they don't offer Devs a place to sell their Games and Apps. The entire community outside of Ubuntu is so afraid of having an App store for fear it restricts their freedom. Forums of other distros don't understand the Software Center in Ubuntu. When people come in asking if there is an App store, they are greeted by posters telling them to use the one included. They seemingly can't grasp the idea that people want to be able to buy Software when the Open Sourced versions in the Distros repositories don't cut it. Having paid software available is a benefit. It's not restricting your freedom in any way and you have a choice to buy or not to buy, as there will probably be Open Source alternatives near the Item in the Store like currently.

In any case, you guys are making a big deal out of something so far away. It's not even a Movie of the Week, I've been reading the Mailing Lists and they are saying it's not going to be a problem switching the Distros over to something else. Heck, Mark himself stated recently it wasn't an issue; If I were you, I wouldn't even worry about it right now . For this other guy, yes, Ubuntu has done more to draw in Windows users. The App store gave devs a place to sell things for one. And before Ubuntu, Linux adoption was completely stagnant and now it's on the rise. We wouldn't have even had Steam without Ubuntu. What in the hell is wrong with you guys, why are you so stuck in your old ways. It's time to look to the future, not the past.

[alexThunder]

I think a lot of you are forgetting when you're talking about using a Mint base etc. The Software Center is the entire pull for Ubuntu. You can't use the Software Center on other distros except the Official ones (Xubuntu-Kubuntu etc) It doesn't work at all on Mint. Some guy (Mint Forums) was trying to install a game he bought on Ubuntu, in Mint through an install of the Software Center; but it didn't work. They would cease to be Official Distros and people would abandon them. Of course we have Steam now too and other Games coming out whose only Support will be for Ubuntu. Devs have pretty much settled the fragmentation issue and I know it's difficult for some of you to swallow.

Now some of you are going to come in here and ask me what's wrong with included package managers for Debian/Redhat etc. What's wrong is they don't offer Devs a place to sell their Games and Apps. The entire community outside of Ubuntu is so afraid of having an App store for fear it restricts their freedom. Forums of other distros don't understand the Software Center in Ubuntu. When people come in asking if there is an App store, they are greeted by posters telling them to use the one included. They seemingly can't grasp the idea that people want to be able to buy Software when the Open Sourced versions in the Distros repositories don't cut it. Having paid software available is a benefit. It's not restricting your freedom in any way and you have a choice to buy or not to buy, as there will probably be Open Source alternatives near the Item in the Store like currently.

In any case, you guys are making a big deal out of something so far away. It's not even a Movie of the Week, I've been reading the Mailing Lists and they are saying it's not going to be a problem switching the Distros over to something else. Heck, Mark himself stated recently it wasn't an issue; If I were you, I wouldn't even worry about it right now . For this other guy, yes, Ubuntu has done more to draw in Windows users. The App store gave devs a place to sell things for one. And before Ubuntu, Linux adoption was completely stagnant and now it's on the rise. We wouldn't have even had Steam without Ubuntu. What in the hell is wrong with you guys, why are you so stuck in your old ways. It's time to look to the future, not the past.

This.

Furthermore, IIRC, the main argument for KDE devs not supporting Mir is, they don't accept distro-specific code, which is perferctly sane, actually. However, if they don't make an exception, they generally exclude the majority of Linux users (according to Steam Survey). They can't possibly consider this a good idea, unless they can verify that the number of Ubuntu users is actually a minority (or falsify the Steam Survey).

[d2kx]

I think a lot of you are forgetting when you're talking about using a Mint base etc. The Software Center is the entire pull for Ubuntu. You can't use the Software Center on other distros except the Official ones (Xubuntu-Kubuntu etc) It doesn't work at all on Mint. Some guy (Mint Forums) was trying to install a game he bought on Ubuntu, in Mint through an install of the Software Center; but it didn't work. They would cease to be Official Distros and people would abandon them. Of course we have Steam now too and other Games coming out whose only Support will be for Ubuntu. Devs have pretty much settled the fragmentation issue and I know it's difficult for some of you to swallow.

Now some of you are going to come in here and ask me what's wrong with included package managers for Debian/Redhat etc. What's wrong is they don't offer Devs a place to sell their Games and Apps. The entire community outside of Ubuntu is so afraid of having an App store for fear it restricts their freedom. Forums of other distros don't understand the Software Center in Ubuntu. When people come in asking if there is an App store, they are greeted by posters telling them to use the one included. They seemingly can't grasp the idea that people want to be able to buy Software when the Open Sourced versions in the Distros repositories don't cut it. Having paid software available is a benefit. It's not restricting your freedom in any way and you have a choice to buy or not to buy, as there will probably be Open Source alternatives near the Item in the Store like currently.

In any case, you guys are making a big deal out of something so far away. It's not even a Movie of the Week, I've been reading the Mailing Lists and they are saying it's not going to be a problem switching the Distros over to something else. Heck, Mark himself stated recently it wasn't an issue; If I were you, I wouldn't even worry about it right now . For this other guy, yes, Ubuntu has done more to draw in Windows users. The App store gave devs a place to sell things for one. And before Ubuntu, Linux adoption was completely stagnant and now it's on the rise. We wouldn't have even had Steam without Ubuntu. What in the hell is wrong with you guys, why are you so stuck in your old ways. It's time to look to the future, not the past.

You win this thread.

[frign]

Fallacy

This.

Furthermore, IIRC, the main argument for KDE devs not supporting Mir is, they don't accept distro-specific code, which is perferctly sane, actually. However, if they don't make an exception, they generally exclude the majority of Linux users (according to Steam Survey). They can't possibly consider this a good idea, unless they can verify that the number of Ubuntu users is actually a minority (or falsify the Steam Survey).

I think this is a perfect example of a moral conflict between the ideals of the Free Software Movement and the Open Source Movement:
Former proposes to develop software which actually is not distro-specific and I definitely support this, because it benefits the users' freedom in the long run. If we, however, look at the greatest popularity according to latter ideals without taking in regard the users' freedom, we are making a huge mistake: Just because Ubuntu is the most popular distribution, it does not mean we should support Canonical's NiH-Syndrome. Just because we might not be going the "Mir-way", we don't exclude the majority of GNU/Linux-users, because you can't consider Ubuntu to be a distribution which in turn respects its user-base.
Developing for everybody by using non-distro-specific solutions is a much more sustainable and rational way to go.

Consequently, aiming for the greatest popularity would in the end lead you to a non-free operating system (Windows, Mac OS X) and I tell you: Ubuntu is on the best way to become one for the most part.

[YAFU]

It's time to look to the future, not the past.

Ohh, And what is that future? Steam and proprietary drivers choosing Mir and only running on Ubuntu? No thanks.
I have already decided, I will stop using Kubuntu or anything related with Canonical.
For own solutions outside of the GNU/Linux community I prefer Android instead of Ubuntu anyway.

[ninez]

I think a lot of you are forgetting when you're talking about using a Mint base etc. The Software Center is the entire pull for Ubuntu. You can't use the Software Center on other distros except the Official ones (Xubuntu-Kubuntu etc) It doesn't work at all on Mint. Some guy (Mint Forums) was trying to install a game he bought on Ubuntu, in Mint through an install of the Software Center; but it didn't work. They would cease to be Official Distros and people would abandon them. Of course we have Steam now too and other Games coming out whose only Support will be for Ubuntu. Devs have pretty much settled the fragmentation issue and I know it's difficult for some of you to swallow.

I can't say much on the mint base + software center, but you apparently aren't aware of some basic stuff about Valve Steam; The Steam Client is for linux, Valve specifically changed their license so that Steam could be packaged for any distribution. (and it is packaged for many).

Now some of you are going to come in here and ask me what's wrong with included package managers for Debian/Redhat etc. What's wrong is they don't offer Devs a place to sell their Games and Apps. The entire community outside of Ubuntu is so afraid of having an App store for fear it restricts their freedom. Forums of other distros don't understand the Software Center in Ubuntu. When people come in asking if there is an App store, they are greeted by posters telling them to use the one included. They seemingly can't grasp the idea that people want to be able to buy Software when the Open Sourced versions in the Distros repositories don't cut it. Having paid software available is a benefit. It's not restricting your freedom in any way and you have a choice to buy or not to buy, as there will probably be Open Source alternatives near the Item in the Store like currently.

I think that is a pretty broad stroke of the brush, on your part; I can't think of any valid reason to be against having an App Store in XYZ distro - Important note: I am *NOT* an Ubuntu user AND therefore am apart of your imaginary "outside community that is afraid of an App store restricting freedom"). Sorry dude, i call BS on that point. I should also point out that i use lots of 'paid software' ~ not one of which *requires* an app store, at all (since they require licenses), although the convenience of an App Store wouldn't be a bad thing, for some people. ~ however, I think USC is a slow piece of junk and if there is to be an App Store 'for linux' ~ i hope it isn't based off of USC code and instead should be generic enough to be used across any distro and maybe not use Python for the app, as well.

In any case, you guys are making a big deal out of something so far away. It's not even a Movie of the Week, I've been reading the Mailing Lists and they are saying it's not going to be a problem switching the Distros over to something else. Heck, Mark himself stated recently it wasn't an issue; If I were you, I wouldn't even worry about it right now . For this other guy, yes, Ubuntu has done more to draw in Windows users. The App store gave devs a place to sell things for one. And before Ubuntu, Linux adoption was completely stagnant and now it's on the rise. We wouldn't have even had Steam without Ubuntu. What in the hell is wrong with you guys, why are you so stuck in your old ways. It's time to look to the future, not the past.

Linux Adoption was not stagnant before Ubuntu, and it wasn't the app store that initially attracted people to Ubuntu, either. (since it did not even exist back then - do you not remember this? ...or maybe you weren't using linux back then? ... i assume not, because your interpretation of the past is not accurate, at all. It was Mark's/Canonical's Clever marketing, buzz words / Mandela-esque narrative and the fact that Canonical shipped CD/ISOs *free of charge* to anyone - anywhere! ~ that garnered Ubuntu hordes of users, initially. USC came much much later. (but was a very good idea, for sure). yes Ubuntu has drawn in (windows) users - but your account of how this happened isn't accurate, in the slightest.

I also think that While Ubuntu has played a role in Steam coming to linux, one could just as easily point out how Steam couldn't have come to linux at all, if it weren't for the real linux / OSS developers who work on all of the plumbing (that Ubuntu/Canonical never have / never will) that have actually have made it possible for Steam to run on linux. Let's put it this way ~ Ubuntu wouldn't have sh*t without Debian, Redhat, etc - you know, the people/developers who actually do the *non-trivial implementation details / coding* that Ubuntu benefits directly from, yet Ubuntu contributes pretty much ZERO code to.

anyway, back to the actual topic at hand;

At the end of the day, Canonical can try to support these other DEs in Mir (out of tree, if unacceptable to upstream - just like many of Canonical's patches are today, for XYZ software/lib/etc) or these Ubuntu derivatives can just avoid Mir altogether and use X or Wayland. (which by all accounts should be available to them)... I really don't see this as a big issue ~ sure there will be details to iron-out, but it seems somewhat trivial, to me anyway.

[frign]

Thank God!

Ohh, And what is that future? Steam and proprietary drivers choosing Mir and only running on Ubuntu? No thanks.
I have already decided, I will stop using Kubuntu or anything related with Canonical.
For own solutions outside of the GNU/Linux community I prefer Android instead of Ubuntu anyway.

It's heart-warming to see some people are still in their right minds here! All the other people should check if they might suffer from Stockholm-Syndrome.
In the long run, we should get away from proprietary drivers and _especially_ firmware. Promoting the opposite, like the guy you replied to, is a huge step backwards.

[alexThunder]

I think this is a perfect example of a moral conflict between the ideals of the Free Software Movement and the Open Source Movement:
Former proposes to develop software which actually is not distro-specific and I definitely support this, because it benefits the users' freedom in the long run. If we, however, look at the greatest popularity according to latter ideals without taking in regard the users' freedom, we are making a huge mistake: Just because Ubuntu is the most popular distribution, it does not mean we should support Canonical's NiH-Syndrome. Just because we might not be going the "Mir-way", we don't exclude the majority of GNU/Linux-users, because you can't consider Ubuntu to be a distribution which in turn respects its user-base.
Developing for everybody by using non-distro-specific solutions is a much more sustainable and rational way to go.

Consequently, aiming for the greatest popularity would in the end lead you to a non-free operating system (Windows, Mac OS X) and I tell you: Ubuntu is on the best way to become one for the most part.

That's right. But look at the situation before Ubuntu came up. There were only very few people able to use Linux (either due to the lack of knowledge, software or support). And what's free software good for, if it's not for everybody? Until now, the people from Canonical are pretty much the only ones, who (more or less) successfully used free software to weaken Microsofts proprietary grip on the Desktop. Would you want to revert that situation back to pre-Ubuntu days because of a display server? You might get your ideally developed software that way, but it would barely help anyone (only a few).

Ubuntu may not be the best way, but right now it's still the only one. I'm not too happy about this and would like to see other companies trying to accomplish the same in a better way, but in reality, there's no one doing this. So it's not about aiming for the greatest popularity, but aiming for popularity at all.

[GreatEmerald]

I didn't want to reply because I didn't know where to start with this, but since the post gained so many supporters all of a sudden...

I think a lot of you are forgetting when you're talking about using a Mint base etc. The Software Center is the entire pull for Ubuntu. You can't use the Software Center on other distros except the Official ones (Xubuntu-Kubuntu etc) It doesn't work at all on Mint. Some guy (Mint Forums) was trying to install a game he bought on Ubuntu, in Mint through an install of the Software Center; but it didn't work. They would cease to be Official Distros and people would abandon them. Of course we have Steam now too and other Games coming out whose only Support will be for Ubuntu. Devs have pretty much settled the fragmentation issue and I know it's difficult for some of you to swallow.

So why would you buy games in a distro-specific store? That's already a bad move, and it being exclusive is a sign of Canonical's unfriendly outlook towards the other distros that are based on Ubuntu (not to mention to the users on the whole, exclusivity is always a bad thing for the consumer).

Games supporting only Ubuntu? That's hardly even possible at the moment, not to mention that it would be utterly stupid for the game developers to do so. Ubuntu might be the most popular distribution, but it's by far not the only distribution. If you care enough to port your game to Linux, then you probably care about porting it to the entirety of Linux, not a percentage of it.

And personally I don't like the Software Centre as a whole. It doesn't add any features that I was missing, simplifies a lot, and it's slow and inefficient. The first thing I'd do if forced to use Ubuntu would be to install Synaptic. The second thing would be to uninstall everything with "Ubuntu" prepending the name.

Now some of you are going to come in here and ask me what's wrong with included package managers for Debian/Redhat etc. What's wrong is they don't offer Devs a place to sell their Games and Apps. The entire community outside of Ubuntu is so afraid of having an App store for fear it restricts their freedom. Forums of other distros don't understand the Software Center in Ubuntu. When people come in asking if there is an App store, they are greeted by posters telling them to use the one included. They seemingly can't grasp the idea that people want to be able to buy Software when the Open Sourced versions in the Distros repositories don't cut it. Having paid software available is a benefit. It's not restricting your freedom in any way and you have a choice to buy or not to buy, as there will probably be Open Source alternatives near the Item in the Store like currently.

Having an option to buy proprietary software is fair enough. Ubuntu store is not. It's not a central marketplace, it's distribution-specific. If there was a central marketplace, and one that would not have free software in it (because that's pointless, it's already managed by distribution package managers), then it would be fine. But there isn't.

In any case, you guys are making a big deal out of something so far away. It's not even a Movie of the Week, I've been reading the Mailing Lists and they are saying it's not going to be a problem switching the Distros over to something else. Heck, Mark himself stated recently it wasn't an issue; If I were you, I wouldn't even worry about it right now . For this other guy, yes, Ubuntu has done more to draw in Windows users. The App store gave devs a place to sell things for one. And before Ubuntu, Linux adoption was completely stagnant and now it's on the rise. We wouldn't have even had Steam without Ubuntu. What in the hell is wrong with you guys, why are you so stuck in your old ways. It's time to look to the future, not the past.

I wouldn't believe what Mark says in the slightest right now. He's concerned with marketing, not technical matters.

No, Ubuntu hasn't done all that much to draw in users, and what it did manage to do is falling apart anyway. With Ubuntu getting more and more exclusive, separate and unfriendly towards the rest of the Linux platform, Ubuntu users might as well not exist as far as others are concerned. They're in a walled garden and they stay in a walled garden.

And yes, we would have had Steam without Ubuntu. It simply would have been based on Fedora, openSUSE or Debian, because the reason why Valve decided to move towards Linux is not because some warm feelings towards Ubuntu, but rather because they need an open platform to counter the Windows situation and build their SteamBox upon.

So no, this has nothing to do with "being stuck in the past", and everything to do with Canonical trying to be the new Apple and thus burning bridges with everyone else involved in the process. From my point of view, the future is definitely murky.

[Sonadow]

In the long run, we should get away from proprietary drivers and _especially_ firmware.

You leave firmware out of this.

Firmware belongs to hardware and IS a part of hardware. FOSS has got no say and should have no say over hardware.