Canonical Working On Mir's Performance, Mir On Mir

[GreatEmerald]

why do i have to use the CLI to define a new monitor or force a resolution when the EDID fails?Why can't the process of downloading and installing something from the internet is always a pain in the ass and we can't have double click next-next-next-end packages?I still thinks that the basic macosx app system(the one that all apps are self-conteined) is an easier way, but i would settle for that.

EDID problems are due to hardware. Otherwise even X now doesn't need any manual configuration, it just works. And no, it's much, much easier to install programs on most Linux distributions than it is on Windows. Why would you go to Google, search for the program name, find the main page for the program, find the download page, find your OS version and your architecture, download an installer, run the installer, press next a bunch of times, then delete the installer (or let it clutter your disk for all eternity)? How about opening the package manager, entering the program name, putting a check mark on it and pressing Continue? And if it's not in the official repositories, at least on openSUSE, all you need to do is go to the central software download page, search for the program, press 1-Click Install, then choose whether to preserve the repository or not, and you're done.

[sireangelus]

EDID problems are due to hardware. Otherwise even X now doesn't need any manual configuration, it just works. And no, it's much, much easier to install programs on most Linux distributions than it is on Windows. Why would you go to Google, search for the program name, find the main page for the program, find the download page, find your OS version and your architecture, download an installer, run the installer, press next a bunch of times, then delete the installer (or let it clutter your disk for all eternity)? How about opening the package manager, entering the program name, putting a check mark on it and pressing Continue? And if it's not in the official repositories, at least on openSUSE, all you need to do is go to the central software download page, search for the program, press 1-Click Install, then choose whether to preserve the repository or not, and you're done.

because it's as we are used to do. and because for any number of reasons not all the available programs in earth are on the package manager. Even more so for proprietary stuff. We can't have linux go worldwide without a distro-independent (or at least package-manager independent) way of installing programs and drivers.. Even more so, when to install a driver you have 95% of the time go to the command line(windows had GUI driver installs for like what... 15 years?) Or should we go the phone/tablet way and have all software go through a gate?

[dh04000]

As I see, the mesa devs have neither responded to nor commited the proposed Mir backend.

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/mesa-dev/2013-March/035714.html

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/tree/src/egl/drivers/dri2

BTW, did Canonical actually expressed regrets for their blatant lies?

This is just like the gnome issue they had before. People bitch and complain that Ubuntu does contribute back, but no one ever takes thier patches. Thier gnome patches were ignored, so they HAD to fork gnome 2's panel. Thier gnome patches were ignored, so they HAD to make Unity. Thier debian patches are ignored, so they CAN'T stay compatible with Debian. Thier mesa patches are ignored so thier drivers WON'T be compatible.

And people will scream and yell that they do nothing to contribute and stay compatible, while locking them out from trying to be part of the ecosystem. Hypocrits.

(I will not respond to people asking for sources, use google)

[dee.]

because it's as we are used to do.

Hey there baby duck, miss your mommy?

and because for any number of reasons not all the available programs in earth are on the package manager. Even more so for proprietary stuff. We can't have linux go worldwide without a distro-independent (or at least package-manager independent) way of installing programs and drivers.. Even more so, when to install a driver you have 95% of the time go to the command line(windows had GUI driver installs for like what... 15 years?) Or should we go the phone/tablet way and have all software go through a gate?

Uh... hey... install drivers, what? Linux comes with all the drivers you need. The only driver you would ever need to install is the (proprietary) GPU driver and guess what, even that can be done in the package manager. If you need drivers from some specialized hardware, odds are you won't care if it has a GUI installer because if you use specialized hardware you are not an average user and you'll know what you're doing (or hire someone to do it for you).

Also, we already have distro-independent ways to install programs. If you go buy games from Humble Bundle for example, a lot of them come as install scripts, which you run once, and they ask you where you want to install the game, and then you're done. You're making up imaginary problems.

And yes, most software comes in through package manager. That's fine and great, because Linux distros also allow you to install software by other means if you want to. The windows way of doing things isn't the only way, and by far isn't the best.

[sireangelus]

Because there are things that simply can't be configured via a user interface. I dare you to configure ALSA to use dmix over multiple outputs without learning the configuration syntax, and then come up with a UI that allows that amount of flexibility.

Sit a professional athlete on a bicycle for the first time in his life => he'll fall off. Same principle, to every tool there is a learning curve.



Where have you been the past four years?Wayland took the time they needed to get things right. Mir built directly on that, changing next to nothing. Also full wayland desktops will be here within the year, so touting Mir as a finally complete solution is BS.

They can simply ignore it and let canonical patch their asses off. My bet is on this approach.

1) I never said to remove cli support. Just make sure that there is AT LEAST some kind of GUI fallback for people who like to have they're work done in a few clicks and to have it REMEMBERED AS DEFAULT- the emulator example is a very nice one... each had a - in the command line. if you wanted all of them you would go crazy writing for 40sec all the options to just RUN A FREAKING GAME.

2) EDID problems are hardware. But on windows i can go in a panel, tell the panel that monitor have a resolution of 1280x1024 and that's it. When there is no edid it set it on a default safe res/freq and then it gives you all the options avaible to the graphic card, so you just select what you want. to do the same in linux i had to write long pointless cli command, make a script out of them and pray that next time i reboot the script works fine.
Linux is not windows... lol same argument. Same attitude that locked linux on a niche for years, thank god there is someone who really wants to get any kind of linux out there where real people does not care if you use cli to set up that dmix(i work in the music field too, i don't even know what that means), but would be glad if they could have a simple mixer(xfce does not have that, it's either the keyboard fn or the full pulseaudio config) that can be set to output audio to the second graphic card for all streams.(xfce bug maybe, on unity it does that.)

Uh what? Listen, if you want windows, go use windows. Problem solved. LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS, and we (most Linux users) are happy about that, because we don't want windows.

Package management in Linux is lightyears better than windows installers and registries and all that bullshit by any objective measure. Besides, what problem do you have installing packages from the internet? On my Linux OS, I can download a .deb file, doubleclick on it in my file manager, which brings up GDebi and lets me install the package with ONE CLICK OF THE MOUSE, which is actually LESS than in windows installers. You're making up imaginary problems.

Having all apps be self-contained is stupid, it's waste of resources. If you want macos, use macos.

Who told you that you won't have all your CLI happiness.I never said: KILL THE TERMINAL WITH FIRE.you linux users aren't the masses. You can't even make the 0,4% in terms of market share(i mean, users like you). You see, there is an elegant way to do things, there is a powerful one, there is an easy one. I just want the option for the easy one. Let the powerful one be there. just i don't want to have to do a tedious long list of command line things to burn a cd like i used to. And.. i think that typing on a tablet is very, very ergonomically fucked up.

Because we don't have to assume that people are idiots. Wikipedia exists. Even idiots can copy-paste instructions from the internet to the command line or download premade scripts that they can put on their desktop as links. For fscks sake, it's not rocket science.

This whole windows paradigm of making everything hold your hand at the cost of functionality is a shitty one. It doesn't do any favors to the user, it's better for the user to learn how to do things rather than just blindly click through text boxes that they don't understand. If average people can learn to use spreadsheets, they can learn to use the CLI. Heck, back in the early 90s almost everything was done in DOS, and regular, non-tech-savvy people had no problems running programs or doing their work or copying files.

yeah right... GUIs makes no sense at all. Why having them??? it was so nice back then. I tell you something that nobody ever told you and you sure as hell never noticed: PEOPLE-ARE-LAZY. They don't want to learn a complicated way to do stuff. They want to actually do stuff, and do it in the fastest way possible. It happens that is the gui and using the mouse instead of typing for longs periods of time.It means that i don't have to maybe find a way to do things through an obscure set of things in a strange language that sounds like alien, they want to have a nice panel that sets up the options with them cleary explained so that they can do on their own easily. It happens also that i want to learn how to do things in the smallest time possible. If a bike had 8 different brakes and 70 gears,that might have a scope for a pro biker, a normal person that just wants to do a mile and have a nice ride looking around won't care to learn them ,they would want the normal 2 brake-1 gear version, and they will trash the 8 brakes bike without a second though. In fact it seems to me that the most used(and sold) bikes have no shift gear at all. Have you ever asked yourself why?(it's an interesting parallel too.)

Bullshit. Canonical had plenty of time to help in Wayland development, they sat on their asses and did nothing. Then suddenly turned coat and released huge FUD and slander about wayland. The ones who didn't collaborate are Canonical. Don't try to rewrite history.

It's not about the development of the wayland. i wasn't talking about wayland alone: think about gnome, systemd, xorg, toolkit provider. They were asked to change and have all a common release schedule to be able to deliver stable stuff in an ordered manner( how many times having a new version of xorg too late in the distro development have broken things ?) instead of the chaos right now(everyone releases as they see fit. not bad by itself, but not very reliable when you're a software house trying to aim at a moving target that can be at multiple places in time in multiple spaces)

[dee.]

1) I never said to remove cli support. Just make sure that there is AT LEAST some kind of GUI fallback for people who like to have they're work done in a few clicks and to have it REMEMBERED AS DEFAULT- the emulator example is a very nice one... each had a - in the command line. if you wanted all of them you would go crazy writing for 40sec all the options to just RUN A FREAKING GAME.

Who forces you to write them everytime? Write a script. If you need a GUI for an emulator... make it yourself. It's not that hard, and you can share it with all those newbies who need GUIs. Be a hero. Make a contribution.

2) EDID problems are hardware. But on windows i can go in a panel, tell the panel that monitor have a resolution of 1280x1024 and that's it. When there is no edid it set it on a default safe res/freq and then it gives you all the options avaible to the graphic card, so you just select what you want. to do the same in linux i had to write long pointless cli command, make a script out of them and pray that next time i reboot the script works fine.
Linux is not windows... lol same argument. Same attitude that locked linux on a niche for years, thank god there is someone who really wants to get any kind of linux out there where real people does not care if you use cli to set up that dmix(i work in the music field too, i don't even know what that means), but would be glad if they could have a simple mixer(xfce does not have that, it's either the keyboard fn or the full pulseaudio config) that can be set to output audio to the second graphic card for all streams.(xfce bug maybe, on unity it does that.)

So you're saying, that in order to gain marketshare, Linux must become the same as windows? Lol, no thanks. I'd rather use a niche OS that gives me open source and freedom from NSA surveillance than a mainstream BigBrotherOS.

And besides, you're wrong.

Who told you that you won't have all your CLI happiness.I never said: KILL THE TERMINAL WITH FIRE.you linux users aren't the masses. You can't even make the 0,4% in terms of market share(i mean, users like you). You see, there is an elegant way to do things, there is a powerful one, there is an easy one. I just want the option for the easy one. Let the powerful one be there. just i don't want to have to do a tedious long list of command line things to burn a cd like i used to. And.. i think that typing on a tablet is very, very ergonomically fucked up.

Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.

If you want GUIs for things, make them yourself. Share with others. Be useful. Not that difficult.

yeah right... GUIs makes no sense at all. Why having them??? it was so nice back then. I tell you something that nobody ever told you and you sure as hell never noticed: PEOPLE-ARE-LAZY. They don't want to learn a complicated way to do stuff. They want to actually do stuff, and do it in the fastest way possible. It happens that is the gui and using the mouse instead of typing for longs periods of time.It means that i don't have to maybe find a way to do things through an obscure set of things in a strange language that sounds like alien, they want to have a nice panel that sets up the options with them cleary explained so that they can do on their own easily. It happens also that i want to learn how to do things in the smallest time possible. If a bike had 8 different brakes and 70 gears,that might have a scope for a pro biker, a normal person that just wants to do a mile and have a nice ride looking around won't care to learn them ,they would want the normal 2 brake-1 gear version, and they will trash the 8 brakes bike without a second though. In fact it seems to me that the most used(and sold) bikes have no shift gear at all. Have you ever asked yourself why?(it's an interesting parallel too.)

Computers are not bikes. When there are problems with a windows installation, the average punter is in trouble no matter if there's a GUI or not. They don't know what to do anyway. You can't solve every problem by adding big shiny buttons on it.

It's not about the development of the wayland. i wasn't talking about wayland alone: think about gnome, systemd, xorg, toolkit provider. They were asked to change and have all a common release schedule to be able to deliver stable stuff in an ordered manner( how many times having a new version of xorg too late in the distro development have broken things ?) instead of the chaos right now(everyone releases as they see fit. not bad by itself, but not very reliable when you're a software house trying to aim at a moving target that can be at multiple places in time in multiple spaces)

Yeah and why should every project have to do their things the way Canonical wants? They were here long before Canonical, they do things with other distros in mind, not just Canonical. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu. Ask yourself, why does every other company, every other distro and project manage to co-operate with these projects and toolkits, but Canonical is the only one that has problems? If you find yourself fighting the world, it doesn't matter how correct you think you are. You simply need to play by the rules of the sandbox or pick up your toys and go home.

[erendorn]

Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.

Well this does suggest that in order to match Linux and a big marketshare, good GUI/no CLI required somehow help.

[Siekacz]

I propose good GUI and even better CLI - we have to think about Bash replacement, no matter how powerful it is (it certainly is!), its design sucks a lot. I tend to write scripts in Python because of simplicity and readability issues with Bash.
Good GUI is a must, because computers aren't made for fixing them, configuring and setting up servers. When you want to do non-tech things, like editing documents, movies, audio files or pictures you need a good UI.

[ashkbajw]

Because we don't have to assume that people are idiots. Wikipedia exists. Even idiots can copy-paste instructions from the internet to the command line or download premade scripts that they can put on their desktop as links. For fscks sake, it's not rocket science.

This whole windows paradigm of making everything hold your hand at the cost of functionality is a shitty one. It doesn't do any favors to the user, it's better for the user to learn how to do things rather than just blindly click through text boxes that they don't understand. If average people can learn to use spreadsheets, they can learn to use the CLI. Heck, back in the early 90s almost everything was done in DOS, and regular, non-tech-savvy people had no problems running programs or doing their work or copying files.

yeah because when you get a big stack trace in the console, it's obvious for everyone what to do....
You think people have any idea of what to do when they encounter a problem? It's not like us devs that google for solutions and know how to find our ways around the internet....my dad still searches like "80's rock music LPs". My mom whenever firefox crashes and says stuff about restoring the previous session, she always calls me to "fix" it, and gets mad at me for telling her to read the fucking message, and even then she has NO CLUE of what that means.
Your problem is thinking that everyone has 20 years of free time to learn linux, the internet ways, CLIs, and on top of that, REMEMBER EVERYTHING.....
I know, C, python, VB, ASM but still it's a PITA to have to spend 1 or 2 hours writing a stupid script to fix something that could be already done like in windows. Like sireangelus said, way memorize all the syntax and commands to change the monitor resolution, when a frame, 1 combobox and 2 bottoms can fix it? When i said emulators i meant that if i want to play something, i dont want to be learning all the stupid commands to be able tune it so that it works for my configuration. (if you want sex, you are not in the mood to spend 3 hours trying to get the command right in the console) plus you have to change everything lots of times to troubleshoot some bugs and doing that in the console is commuting sepuku. Like trying to debug a binary without a debugger. Intead of CLI plus gui util, it should be GUI + no-gui option like pcsx has.
And not, it not like "you dont like this then go away", YOU go away by your oun means because this is caused by your attitude. Windows is not bad, it's just oversimplified and closed source. I dont like windows because it's inflexible but also dont like this linux bs about everything-should-be-cli.

Bullshit, Mednafen works great for everything up to SNES, Mupen64plus works great for N64, and Dolphin works great for GameCube games. Mednafen especially is brilliant, it works better than the best SNES emulator on windows (ZSNES) and has all the same features plus some more.

It's really not that difficult to type "emulator-name rom-name" on the terminal. Or hell, write a quick shell script with zenity if you absolutely need to poke things with a mouse and are allergic to the keyboard...

What's a folder, some kind of windows thing? The directory structure of Linux follows the POSIX standard and it is good. Nothing wrong with it. On the contrary, it is windows that has stupid directory structures. It might look fancy to name directories "Program Files" and such, but when you're on the terminal, you don't want to type out "cd Program\ Files", it's much easier to type "cd usr". I haven't seen a version conflict... well, ever. The distro packagers make sure that those don't happen.

Package management works great on Linux, it's still lightyears ahead of any proprietary OS.

Didnt now about mednafen, in all these years it never ever appeared in google, so i guess it's not well known.
yeah forgot abut muppen64 and dolphin, they are both really good quality pieces of software.

#emulator rom.rom
*window appears*
*crackling sound*
*20fps with a nes/megadrive rom on a 6core @ 3,5GHz*
*no controller defined at all*
(and on top of that it doesnt even support you nice wireless gamepad you bought specifically to play these roms without the cumbersome keyboard....)
This is what i was talking about.

well just tested mednafen and it at least works, (althouhg megadrive roms dont work) but still not gonna bother setting EACH key via console command.....nor spend 3 hours reading all the documentation. And dont even think i'll spend 3 more hours or more writing a script to change the configuration for EACH emulator it supports. It does have a minimal menu in-game but far from what zsnes has. And even if i did write the gui and stuff which would take a lot of time, then i'd have to upload it somewhere like source forge, and then maintain it. Just hoping some distro will see my effort and make the appropriate packages so that others can use it too.
dude, what's so bad about a gui to speed things up? If you do something, do it right, not just half and let other take care of the rest.
VLC did it right, their config windows is fantastic, has basic and advanced mode, and every setting is in a combobox or a numberbox
If you are the author, makig a gui util takes you a fraction of what one would have to spend learning how to do it via console, multiply that by every people that will have to spend that time.....so you end with 4 hours of the authors time vs 1 or 2 days of every user out there.

Yeah and why should every project have to do their things the way Canonical wants? They were here long before Canonical, they do things with other distros in mind, not just Canonical. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu. Ask yourself, why does every other company, every other distro and project manage to co-operate with these projects and toolkits, but Canonical is the only one that has problems? If you find yourself fighting the world, it doesn't matter how correct you think you are. You simply need to play by the rules of the sandbox or pick up your toys and go home.

yeah except most big ones aim at the server market, not the end user one. It's RedHat Enterprise......not RedHat Home Premium. Oracle, novell, the same. Very few do stuff for the end user unless unless they need it for their corporative distro. They might fund some software but those they fund still do it wrong, see gnome3, it had to be forked into mate because gnome3 was all you said you dont like about windows. Why not fund something usefull? Or is it ok when something standard does oversimplified stuff for normal users?
Instead of funding all that that we already have, they should pay devs to do the stuff that's missing.

Video: not sure about those movie maker like ones but avidemux is not even a hundredth of what virtualdub is. Same with our codec libraries, in windows you make your codec, register it and programs automatically have support for your new codec, because they have their own configuration utility. In linux you have to make the config util yourself and then recompile everything to support it.....Same goes for demuxers
Let's not talk about ffmpeg......
Audio: Audacity is ok but still missing lots of stuff the big ones have. Has the same codec problems
Image: Everyone in the professional field uses GIMP, i forgot......Not even close to photoshop and the development is turtle slow. Still waiting for multithread rendering/processing....Same goes for inkscape.

Where are those professional looking programs you talk about?

I propose good GUI and even better CLI - we have to think about Bash replacement, no matter how powerful it is (it certainly is!), its design sucks a lot. I tend to write scripts in Python because of simplicity and readability issues with Bash.
Good GUI is a must, because computers aren't made for fixing them, configuring and setting up servers. When you want to do non-tech things, like editing documents, movies, audio files or pictures you need a good UI.

ditto.

[sireangelus]

Who forces you to write them everytime? Write a script. If you need a GUI for an emulator... make it yourself. It's not that hard, and you can share it with all those newbies who need GUIs. Be a hero. Make a contribution.



So you're saying, that in order to gain marketshare, Linux must become the same as windows? Lol, no thanks. I'd rather use a niche OS that gives me open source and freedom from NSA surveillance than a mainstream BigBrotherOS.

And besides, you're wrong.



Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.

If you want GUIs for things, make them yourself. Share with others. Be useful. Not that difficult.



Computers are not bikes. When there are problems with a windows installation, the average punter is in trouble no matter if there's a GUI or not. They don't know what to do anyway. You can't solve every problem by adding big shiny buttons on it.



Yeah and why should every project have to do their things the way Canonical wants? They were here long before Canonical, they do things with other distros in mind, not just Canonical. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu. Ask yourself, why does every other company, every other distro and project manage to co-operate with these projects and toolkits, but Canonical is the only one that has problems? If you find yourself fighting the world, it doesn't matter how correct you think you are. You simply need to play by the rules of the sandbox or pick up your toys and go home.

1)nobody forces me. but the typical tablet user necessary for having linux pass critical mass does not know what that is. Neither he will want to. It will play with it for a few hours, find it too difficult, then he will go and buy an ipad.

2)Yeah right. because, being easy as windows it's BAD right? Oh god no, please no, like that if it's too easy project managers would start out of the blue to close their sources and if it becomes easy and widespread, how am i gonna be the guy who lives in the basement and he's different because he uses linux? It seems to me that you consider yourself an elite just because you know your way around a cli and can do stuff that other people can't.If we start putting in GUI options, everybody would be able to do what you do on a cli and even make jokes about how stupid that can be for simple operations, so god save linux from the misery of popularity!

3)There is no GNU/Linux tablet out there( would you consider ubuntu touch or the vivaldi? it's not out there, nobody is selling them) There are android/linux tablets, bsd/Ios tablets, NT/ModernUI tablets, but no GNU/linux tablets. Please show me which one of these needs cli to force their settings. At worst, android have GUI apps that translate busybox settings and applies them each time at boot( some even create init.d scripts to do that.) Tha'ts what i'd like to see in GNU/Linux. That's really all i'm asking.
They're selling in the millions. Kde 4 vivaldi will not sell a hundred thousand.(Mostly, the ecosystem nobody will be interested in it. I would buy a windows 8 bay-trail tablet without a second thought and have android side-loaded)

4)You can make it easier to solve if you need to show them the solution. Even if you think that copy paste into a cli would be faster, a lot of user would find themselves uncomfortable with that.And visual passages are easy to remember than obscure lines that are used in a zombie like fashion. If you show someone guiding him using the GUI, the next time he has that problem will remember how to solve it.

5)I don't think that would be a bad idea. Have a common release point for all of the major packages would help the ecosystem as a whole, because it would give enough warning and time to prepare for software houses to be ready for the changes, especially when there is api/abi breakage and that was the whole point of canonical( and that, happens a lot on linux. X.Org abi that changes for each release anyone? The versioning mess that the wa.yland developers talked about in another topic?).

Do you ever EVER see api breakage on windows or macosx or android? Sometimes poorly written apps or that uses things that are undocumented might be broken or not funcion properly but most of them usually works across OS versions(please do not use the 9x/NT passage as an example). And no, recompiling it and having to distrubuite different api/abi versions is something that software houses WONT DO. They want to build once, run as long as possible with as little changes as possible on at least the OS they are working on. Yet again, in your whole post you miss the target audience and business and the scope of canonical work.

If you're perfectly happy with your LFS distro you can keep going that way. As I said, until a few years ago i was very, very happy with gentoo.Then the age of reason has come over and between work and other real life stuff i realized that i didn't had the time to go and try to understand how to solve all the complicated stuff and waste all that time( in some cases is not, but for most people is) just to install a SO.I want something that's ready to use and would not give me problems, and it would not be complicated to use or to solve problems when they arise.