Originally posted by elanthis
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Running Wayland: It Works, But A Lot Of Work Remains
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Originally posted by BO$$ View Postyeah, next time when you try to get someone to use linux tell them if it doesn't work well it's community effort so get to work bitch!
So what if I don't pay them? I still have a right to complain? WTF is this attitude? If I see a bug I report it. That is complaining. And it's good. That's how we improve. Sometimes it's easier to tell the developer what I don't like so he can fix it instead of me reading tons of code and fixing his bugs. Why do I have to act as if everything is perfect when it isn't? I am sick of people saying that linux is easy or that it just works.
Yes, you have a right to complain, just as you have the right to be an ahole. The thing is, no one listens to aholes. Your pointless ranting on Phoronix forums
has exactly 0% effect on the development of the software in question. Reporting bugs is good. Yelling at people because they don't use up
their free time to fix them instead of earning money is just being an asshole.
Also, no one is saying Linux is "easy or just works", no one except for zealots maybe. Often it just works, sometimes it doesn't.
And I'm really sorry that you've been "misguided" by zealots into using Linux. But there's just no point in marketing it as something it isn't,
so you shouldn't either.
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Ancurio
Also, no one is saying Linux is "easy or just works", no one except for zealots maybe. Often it just works, sometimes it doesn't.
And I'm really sorry that you've been "misguided" by zealots into using Linux. But there's just no point in marketing it as something it isn't,
so you shouldn't either.
It doesn't take alot of effort to check the support status of hardware on Linux, and even less time to setup a system once you have a good baseline. But guess what, for the average user this doesn't help one bit.
OEMs could much easier do this work themselves, delivering well tested Linux installations with supported hardware to the masses. One thing I think Valve is going to teach us is how to reasonably do package management on a per-user level (thus, not requiring root)... and hopefully, someone will pick up the torch and implement a similar FOSS solution on all major distributions.
That's the missing piece, people. We need one /home level package manager to rule them all, and then all of the problems for OEMs basically disappear, and Linux JUST WORKS on the hardware it has been tested on.
By the way, I fucking hate PulseAudio, and don't use it. DMix does the job, (contrary to what alot of know-nothings that lurk around here say). For my uses it works, and more transparently than PA. Don't blame the applications, eg: "They use PA as/via ALSA (emulation) so they suck", they're just expecting ALSA, and PA's ALSA emulation isn't perfect. This horse has been beaten to death, then to a pulp, then to a blood pile, and now almost to DUST. People obviously have problems with it or they wouldn't complain... just like people obviously have had success with it or they wouldn't use it. I still install it from time to time to see if the status quo has changed.
Really though, enough of the personal attacks. It doesn't add anything, and just brings you to a lower status than the people you're bashing.
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Originally posted by elanthis View PostI keep coming back here despite getting no value out of the experience and having relatively little impact in getting people to actually improve things that need improving, so yes, I apparently like it quite rough indeed. :/
Originally posted by Ancurio View PostWhy the hell would I try to get people to switch to Linux? I'm not an evangelist. If they find out for themself and/or ask me about it, I'll gladly help them.
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Originally posted by BO$$ View PostAnother example, we had compiz 0.8 written in C. The developer rewritten it for C++. Of course, for a couple of versions it's shit (12.04 being a shitty standout). What was so wrong about keeping it in C and improving it from there? It was 95% ok, but nooooo we have to start again...
Originally posted by BO$$ View PostLinux could take over a larger marketshare, but the devs jump to do a thing that already worked from scratch, they get all the media attention(ohhh look wayland, I'm cumming!), and it's never good enough for the real market.
Originally posted by BO$$ View PostAnd when they'll release it we won't see an improvement, in fact most likely we will have problems...and then we will start from scratch once again, this time we'll do it right!
You don't have to upgrade. Its a choice, one you make based on educated decisions (hopefully). If you're just going bleeding edge, ALL THE TIME, prepare for the problems. For everyone else, there's LTS distros.Last edited by kazetsukai; 14 August 2012, 01:31 PM.
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Originally posted by kazetsukai View PostThere's also 8.04 and 10.04, which are, still supported.
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Originally posted by BO$$ View PostI am not saying you personally try to get people on linux. But I don't think you are against the idea of linux having a larger marketshare (think more developers involved -> maybe less bugs??). But it's a chicken and egg problem: to have a larger marketshare you need less bugs in the first place and to be more user friendly. So, instead of having a system that is 95% good and throwing it away to start from scratch (tell me how many times has this happened in linux? Everybody starts from scratch and thinks this new design is the shit while the previous ones are shit) like it's happening now with x and wayland, I say fuck wayland just improve x.
Another example, we had compiz 0.8 written in C. The developer rewritten it for C++. Of course, for a couple of versions it's shit (12.04 being a shitty standout). What was so wrong about keeping it in C and improving it from there? It was 95% ok, but nooooo we have to start again...and then again..and then again. Linux could take over a larger marketshare, but the devs jump to do a thing that already worked from scratch, they get all the media attention(ohhh look wayland, I'm cumming!), and it's never good enough for the real market. And when they'll release it we won't see an improvement, in fact most likely we will have problems...and then we will start from scratch once again, this time we'll do it right!
Let me give you a real world example: in a lot of cases, when a new house is to be built replacing an old one, the old one isn't restored, it's smashed into the ground.
Now why is that? It's for a very simple reason: smashing and starting completely a new is often times WAY cheaper than restoring.
(And in software you don't even have to smash the old one, see below)
Imagine you have a wood house, but due to circumstances, really need it to be made out of cement instead. That's not something you can
just "improve" on the old house, is it?
You might think that X and Wayland are very similar simply for the fact that they serve a similar role, but if you made any serious attempt at comprehending them
you would soon realize that they are fundamentally different approaches to the problem. Hoegsberg himself is a senior contributor to X (I think),
so he must know very well that yet another extension to X won't do the trick.
I'd suggest you to head over to wayland's website and read the comparison to X give there, it's pretty insightful.
There's two major advantages I see to starting from scratch:
1. Obviously, you don't have to worry about cleaning up bad/old code. This frees up a lot of time for other things.
2. You leave the old project intact. Did you ever consider all the people heavily relying on X's features and behavior?
X itself isn't fundamentally bad, it's still good for many use cases (ie. remote sessions), and as many said already, will continue to live on for a very long time.
Oftentimes, people confuse things like in the case with PulseAudio, calling it an "ALSA replacement" when it's really not
(It's a proper solution for the problem dmix was a quick hack solution to).
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Originally posted by johnc View PostYes but the point is someone who says, "Let me try out this Ubuntu stuff" will download 12.04, install it, experience an absolute catastrophe of a disaster, and then scratch Linux off the list for the next 10 years.
Each release, you get the latest stable software stack, and it receives bugfixes until the disto EOLs. So if you download 12.04, you get 12.04. If you download 10.04, you get 10.04. As far as I know, there's no reason for normal users to be recommended 10.04 or 8.04 over 12.04.
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