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Taiwins 0.3 Released As Newest Wayland Compositor Release

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  • #11
    I noticed this from the past from screenshots, but from the taiwins.org front page:

    "Taiwins is the tiling as well as a floating window manager, you can allocate windows on your desktop logically or based on your needs, drag your windows freely."

    That is what I had been talking about look for here in the past. A simple shell / desktop manager (not full-blown desktop environment) that does both tiling and floating with good mouse support. We will see how it actually performs and hope the configurations syntax is clean and easy. I like Sway, but I also like that Taiwins is a break from the past (meaning not a clone) that allows it to try new things.

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    • #12
      Taiwan โค ๐Ÿ‡น๐Ÿ‡ผ๐Ÿ‡น๐Ÿ‡ผ๐Ÿ‡น๐Ÿ‡ผ

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      • #13
        Originally posted by blacknova View Post

        Most people who say that talk about X11 API, which was quite stable and coprehensive enough to create applications with.
        No it is not, because it itself does not productive nearly enough functionality and is fundamentally broken, requiring the same dirty workarounds in every client. There were and are extensions for everything, most of them proprietary to commercial X servers. Have fun trying to get some 30 years old X11 applications running on Xorg.

        Originally posted by blacknova View Post
        The point is X11 provide stable API front for application developers, which include most necessary primitives - like image drawing, text rendering, primitives drawing.
        Not a single X11 application in the last 20 years used X11 text, image or 2D rendering capabilities. Toolkits do that themself and write their result into the buffer, the X server sits around doing nothing but wasting CPU time and adding latency to that process.

        Originally posted by blacknova View Post
        Yes, some of that become outdated today. Yes, implementation focus have been shifted from network transparency to local rendering, thus making a lot of X11 just unnecessary for most people. Does it make X11 completely bad? No.
        No, while still being a horrible protocol, those things are not what makes X11 so extremely bad suited for the modern world.

        Originally posted by blacknova View Post
        With Wayland API, you still need to import additional libraries for anything beyond basic input handling and framebuffer operations, no font rendering, no shared resources caching, no primitives drawing. Good progress.
        Why should Wayland as a protocol do those things when it would be just wasted code, effort and time as toolkits will do that job anyways, no one uses Wayland directly in the same way no sane person would use X11 directly in the last 20 years.
        Last edited by Alexmitter; 04 May 2021, 10:01 AM.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by acobar View Post

          Don't forget about the crap proposal of using VNC to remote desktop when we all are moving to 4K or 8K monitors.

          Hopefully, a bit more sanity will be inserted on Wayland soon.
          Imagine what you were doing with X forwarding in the last 15-20 years, yes, sending bitmaps over the network.
          VNC is just another way of sending those bitmaps over the network, Waypipe would be another more X forwaring-like way.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post

            Imagine what you were doing with X forwarding in the last 15-20 years, yes, sending bitmaps over the network.
            VNC is just another way of sending those bitmaps over the network, Waypipe would be another more X forwaring-like way.
            X were not sending images over network during actual render phase, only when resource was uploaded to server. All the other time X server used already uploaded images and fonts to render windows. And as fonts were server side no bitmaps were required to be sent over network either. That was efficient on old networks, but wasn't efficient for client-side rendering.

            Unless wayland can gather drawing instructions i.e. like GL display lists and than send them over network so client could execute them I don't see how it would be similar to X.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post

              Imagine what you were doing with X forwarding in the last 15-20 years, yes, sending bitmaps over the network.
              VNC is just another way of sending those bitmaps over the network, Waypipe would be another more X forwaring-like way.
              You really didn't use X over network, did you? Granted, over the last years things became broken as X had to be patched to run on new hardware but no, I had not had to use VNC most of the time on this period. Over time, people started to think that a network DE were not that important and it got neglected, now, it is quite clear that even from security POV it is a very desired functionality and Wayland will have to change to accommodate that. It should be there since the beginning, even if a real implementation would lag behind, same for a central repo with a defined API. Time will tell how many things will need change to have it running efficiently.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by nist View Post
                How many independent wayland compositors are there for Linux users?
                Nist: โ€œHow many independent wayland compositors are there for Linux users?โ€
                Linux devs: โ€œYes.โ€

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by blacknova View Post
                  X were not sending images over network during actual render phase, only when resource was uploaded to server.
                  That stopped being the case in the year 2000.

                  https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe
                  The reality here is X11 server over network since at least year 2000 has basically been like waypipe if you want full functionality.

                  Originally posted by acobar View Post
                  You really didn't use X over network, did you? Granted, over the last years things became broken as X had to be patched to run on new hardware but no, I had not had to use VNC most of the time on this period. Over time, people started to think that a network DE were not that important and it got neglected, now, it is quite clear that even from security POV it is a very desired functionality and Wayland will have to change to accommodate that. It should be there since the beginning, even if a real implementation would lag behind, same for a central repo with a defined API. Time will tell how many things will need change to have it running efficiently.
                  acobar VNC is not the only option here. Waypipe shows that from wayland core protocol does not need to change to support network rendering.

                  You talk about security POV. The default X11 protocol over network has a nice nasty problem network connection fails users non saved data goes way. This results in need xpra at least. Next any application using opengl you end up needing some from of local server because back in the pre 2000's it was clear found that even with our highspeed internet opengl buffers over X11 over network equals I need 200Gps per second and still look like crap.
                  https://xpra.org/trac/wiki/Usage/OpenGL
                  Yes once you have X11 with working opengl with correction issue resistance over network results in you are running a local cut down X11 server basically waypipe.

                  Reality here does Wayland protocol need network transpancy in a time frame when applications are using hardware accelerated rendering. The answer is no because the process of using hardware accelerated means you cannot send that over network and you have images to compress and send over network that you need to collect after the application is done.

                  The reality is a network DE worked while applications were mostly software rendering stuff or pushing rendering stuff back on the X11 server that absolutely was not the best performance or power effective way or network bandwitdh way.

                  acobar things with X11 over network were well and truly broken well before the last few years. The lead developers tell you they broke the historic concept of X11 over network in the year 2000 and started sending buffers over network for lots of things.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Font_Server
                  Like have you guys not notice that font rendering moved in X11 from being a server side thing to being a client side thing rendered into image buffers then those buffers sent over network that was a pre 2000 change. Yes when it came to removeal the X Font Server was intentionally bugged and 99% of users did notice because they were using the client side rendering(as in at the application) then sending image buffers over the protocol..

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                  • #19
                    I can't find any substantial demo of the compositor anywhere - screenshots or (better) vids.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by blacknova View Post

                      Most people who say that talk about X11 API, which was quite stable and coprehensive enough to create applications with. The point is X11 provide stable API front for application developers, which include most necessary primitives - like image drawing, text rendering, primitives drawing. Yes, some of that become outdated today. Yes, implementation focus have been shifted from network transparency to local rendering, thus making a lot of X11 just unnecessary for most people. Does it make X11 completely bad? No.

                      With Wayland API, you still need to import additional libraries for anything beyond basic input handling and framebuffer operations, no font rendering, no shared resources caching, no primitives drawing. Good progress.
                      Does anybody really use the font and shape drawing API anyway? Those are severely dated, and the reason why people complain about X's bloat...

                      What I just would like to see on Wayland is a data query protocol, so I could retrieve the mouse position, listen to global input/register hotkeys, and a lot more (of course with the user's permission).
                      Before you mention AT-SPI2 as the solution: No, that is not viable. It's mostly GNOME-only and incomplete (I cannot access the mouse cursor bitmap this way).

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