Originally posted by TemplarGR
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Gallium3D Direct3D 9 For Wine Revived, Again
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Originally posted by Espionage724 View PostAre you trying to make a point, or promote NVIDIA's proprietary driver? I fail to see any reason for the latter in this thread...
My only problem with fglrx and Wine was Guild Wars 2 and osu!, and both seem to work great for me now. On radeonsi, both games also worked, but were slightly slower. Can't say I care how they perform on NVIDIA since I don't own such hardware (and won't for political reasons). But giving the impression Wine is next to useless on AMD in-comparison to NVIDIA just isn't true.
AMD/ATI can be used but have more problems with wine than nvidia, compatibility much reduced, performance much reduced and this situation not change in short time because only free information (lack of GCN hardware information compared to privative) not solve, AMD must be compromise more seriously (resources) with opensource community especially
A major problem in games especially is, in mayor part of games of 2012 and before appears (Nvidia meant be to played) this is a serious problem, and that situation have since 10 years
I can test some titles since 2009 on my blog (I testing both hardware)
or on my youtube channel
En este canal encontraran principalmente: *Resultados de juegos de windows probados en el wine Generalmente en todas las listas de reproduccion hay videos distintos y si se llegasen a presentar videos repetidos puede ser por que hubo un cambio en el hardware de pruebas o por algun cambio importante en el wine que afecte algun titulo en especifico Para mas informacion pueden consultar mi blog http://gamesonwine.blogspot.com O en el foro de CHW http://www.chw.net/foro/gnu-linux-y-otros-sistemas-operativos/247392-juegos-windows-probados-wine.htm *Algunos videos de assasins creed brotherhood y revelaciones en multiplayer sobre windows
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WINE is free Winapi implementation, not free Directx implementation.
As such, I see no problem with Dx state tracker usage over Gallium, skipping whole Dx-OpenGL overhead and plugging directly into graphics driver.
But also remember, how Microsoft has suspended OpenGL? In Dx versions 1-3, the OpenGL was plugged into Dx HAL, not into driver level. So GL performance will always be lower than raw Dx intermediate solely due to the overhead translation.
By skipping the overhead of GL-Dx translation, Wine could gain really good performance on machines with Gallium available.
But then, the Dx redistributables are required to be installed into Wine userspace.
MS can easily create a method to block such usage, because using Dx as of EULA, apart from prohibiting reverse engineering, allows MS to reserve rights in the future. As such it can easily block the usage of the module by disallowing its installation and usage outside of ms-certified environments.
I think we have exactly the same situation as with Reiser.
In either case, the patches are better off maintained externally for some time to prevent the case of suddenly disappearing developer.
They could also be useful to measure the OpenGL-Dx translation overhead!
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Originally posted by werfu View PostNot only that, but it would only benefit a small fraction of users and would be dedicated to Linux (and FreeBSD when the tracker gets ported). So, yeah, I understand them.
And if adding something that "only the minority of Linux users will be able to use" is bad, then why did the Wine devs add that OSX specific X11 replacement some time ago?
Face it, it's all ego issue. Someone developed something such that the whole DX-GL translation layer can now be obsoleted, but the old Wine devs, who think more about their legacy than the actual benefit of users, want to keep this layer and reject any alternatives, even if they are clearly superior.
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Originally posted by TemplarGR View Posti am not allowed to review their product and criticize their decisions?
You're a "pro programmer", *show* me how trivial it would be! Why do you refuse? With one supposedly easy gesture you could shoot down my arguments completely. Why do you not take that chance? Well, the answer is obvious.
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Originally posted by TemplarGR View PostSo let me get this straight: If i have not given money to the developers, i am not allowed to review their product and criticize their decisions? Especially an "opensource" product? SERIOUSLY? I don't know if you are a developer, but you don't seem too bright to me...
I never said i don't like Wine in general. I don't like the attitude of Crossover employees... That is my right, and i can express it since we are not in N. Korea...
Their decision is purely based on the fact that most of their money come from Mac users. I am willing to bet Linux users don't usually pay for Crossover... That is the reason they don't want Linux specific enhancements. There is no technical reason, this patch is so simple. If it was complicated, i might have accepted their argument. But is is so simple...
PS: They won't get that much "bug noise" from supporting the d3d9 state tracker. They don't have to enable it in Crossover. They can let it as an unsupported Linux compile time feature...
oss project rejecting inclusion? never happens... or does it? look at kernel. they will flat out reject inclusion if it doesn't fit in their plan or structure, their agreed writing style...
in OSS both developer and user are right. but
- developer has the right to decide on not accepting some solution into their project or take another direction
- user has the right to say screw them, fork and prove them wrong
not much noise? let's see http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManage...tion&iId=13667
right now it is pretty decent and clean how versions work. imagine all this duplicated since it might run for someone with tracker and not for someone without. why would they need to go trough that if they don't want it? and this never happens, i guess http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTMyNDU
even if you leave it outside.of crossover people usually simply write "wine appname" in google. now, go figure what articles one will saw. some random templargr bragging it works x fps. imagine the surprise when he installs it just to realize it doesn't work. what will they do the 1st thing... flood the wine support
keeping side project outside wine, where you simply take each tarball and release with patches would be painless, not require any work (your words, not mine). that's how distros do binary blobs for example
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Originally posted by justmy2cents View Posti'm a developer my self and i know i would do the same as wine developers. usually so called maintainers disappear and whole maintaining falls on developers who were never interested in that
they get exceeding bug noise, since common user won't know whom to contact to report it.
it is open source. if you don't like something you can
- stop using it
- search alternative
- fork, patch and maintain that codebase. if you're right ppl will pick it up. just look at MATE. when ppl 1st heard that one single guy will fork gnome 2... everybody laughed. now look at it. don't be a whining ass, have the balls to do it or shut up and crawl into your hole
how much did you pay wine developers so far to feel so entitled that developers must work extra work for you?
I never said i don't like Wine in general. I don't like the attitude of Crossover employees... That is my right, and i can express it since we are not in N. Korea...
Their decision is purely based on the fact that most of their money come from Mac users. I am willing to bet Linux users don't usually pay for Crossover... That is the reason they don't want Linux specific enhancements. There is no technical reason, this patch is so simple. If it was complicated, i might have accepted their argument. But is is so simple...
PS: They won't get that much "bug noise" from supporting the d3d9 state tracker. They don't have to enable it in Crossover. They can let it as an unsupported Linux compile time feature...
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Originally posted by zxy_thf View PostIt's possible that they simply don't want to do QA on this patch.
You know you need to test games with dx9 tracker once more.
Anyway I think it's time to branch, as the wine team clearly has to balance different platforms while we - at least me - only want a faster wine under Linux.
But, they don't have to enable it by default. They can just accept it, provide a compile time option, and let the community maintain it. But of course, that can't happen on an "open source" project, right?
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Originally posted by Gusar View PostLook who's talking.
You seem to think maintenance is just adding a few lines of code. You're completely missing the entire end-user support system that you also have to maintain when you distribute software - writing documentation, bug triaging, etc. You're also missing the QA burden - if wine devs incorporate support for the d3d tracker, then they have to test everything with both the tracker and the standard wine stack. Furthermore, when the devs make changes, they have to think how those changes might affect either the standard stack or the tracker and potentially change the tracker-related code, which consumes both time and brain power.
There's is nothing whatsoever political about either of these, they're all practical, *real* burdens that get imposed on devs when they take a piece of code. So when you say "requires almost no maintainance", you're flat-out wrong. Adding a piece of code might be easy, but that's just one small part of maintenance. You're free to prove otherwise, but that will require more than just making big unverified assumptions and accusing people of lying.
I can't take you seriously. You see, unlike you, i am a pro programmer... And i know lies when i see them...
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Guest repliedOriginally posted by pinguinpc View Post...Seriously if you want use wine, NVIDIA with privative drivers is your only option but AMD Opensource driver gains compatibility but performance is low and privative gain performance but loss compatibility but nvidia privative drivers have more performance and compatibility
My only problem with fglrx and Wine was Guild Wars 2 and osu!, and both seem to work great for me now. On radeonsi, both games also worked, but were slightly slower. Can't say I care how they perform on NVIDIA since I don't own such hardware (and won't for political reasons). But giving the impression Wine is next to useless on AMD in-comparison to NVIDIA just isn't true.
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