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  • #21
    Originally posted by MihaiBojescu View Post

    Embrace, expand, extinguish. Currently they are at the embrace/expand phase. Why use Linux natively when you can use everything atop of Windows, with probably a better experience?
    They are smart enough to understand that hardly any computer user knows what an "OS" is. They can read the future where religious Linux fanboyism is gone.
    Literally one day no one will care if they are running Windows or Linux as long as the applications work. Already no one knows what windows version they run or even what a "windows version" is.
    You can see it on Android phones. You can count the people who've noticed the "powered by android" message while restarting their phones on your fingers. They all say "samsung phone" or "huawei", etc...

    The Linux kernel is one of the most successful commercial products on the planet and diminishing the borders between userlands is extremely profitable for computer users.

    You can argue that this is "embrace/expand/extinguish" and yes, it is. But what has Linux done other than encourage this?
    If you want Linux to ever be more than a kernel, an adapted system for your server hardware, or a subsystem in another platform, you have to look further and understand the obstacles that Linux is facing.

    Take a look at android. The userland does what it is meant to do. it doesn't fit any of our technical workflows but it is what OEMs and end users are going to buy.
    Would you pay for polkit/systemd/gnome/kde?
    Sure you might pay for Ubuntu or RHEL but that's only so you can write applications or because this is the only platform you know how to use.
    Is there even a use for Windows anymore besides programs that won't run elsewhere?

    If you want to change the impending future, make alternatives for polkit/systemd/gnome/kde that are not afraid of retaining decades of backwards compatibility and bloat so that users can run their apps. Allow them to complain "I paid for my computer so my apps work".

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    • #22
      Originally posted by MihaiBojescu View Post

      Embrace, expand, extinguish. Currently they are at the embrace/expand phase. Why use Linux natively when you can use everything atop of Windows, with probably a better experience?
      This isn't the embrace or extend phase, it's the beginning of the extinguish phase. If they were gonna extend anything, they'd make windows run easier on top of linux, not the other way around, there's no point running linux on top of windows, except to make linux obsolete, they want linux to become part of windows, linux becoming part of windows would be the death of linux. Next we'll probably get a bunch of utilities in a similar vein as pulseaudio and systemd that a ton of shit is gonna rely on, but it only works when linux is running as a windows slave and not when just running on linux.

      And before we know it, linux without windows will be a borked OS because half the shit people want to run will have started depending on things that only work on WSL:

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      • #23
        Originally posted by oleid View Post

        Yeah, but you'd need to use Windows. Last time I tried Windows 10 on my machine it was slow as hell. And Windows 11 is even more spyware than WIndows 10 already is.
        So thanks, but no thanks. It might be an option at work (thankfully we are on Debian11), but at home? No waaay
        Sure but I do need Windows for things until Proton gets better. Current blocker is Windows Media Foundation Library not being implemented fully.

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        • #24
          I don't know, but this could be some kind of a trojan..you have being warned.

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          • #25
            Linux desktop is problematic.. on server Linux won because its free and Windows server is very expensive (MS could overnight just change pricing if they would really want to take this market segment.. but why to aim to not paying customers, it make not too much sense..), if you want something in the middle you became slave of RedHat, same as to Microsoft.

            Microsoft never tried to compete with Linux on small devices (everything with microchips fast enough to run kernel).. never tried to compete with Windows for all ARM devices (i hope that it will change), tried to compete in phones area with Google and Apple and failed, because there was not advantage of old software base, because they dont wanted to port full Windows to these devices.

            Apple not want to compete with Windows on OS area, just release MacOS/iOS for all pcs and phones, because they see its OS as premium feature to sell their overprized HW, because nobody else cant sell other HW with same their OS.

            Google not want to compete with Windows in desktop area for some reason.. to make Android to run all pcs would be very easy.. it need just add to support of multiple monitors and make Vmware and Virtualbox working, now there are ugly some bad Qemu ports.. and in next step force big software (full versions of Word, Excel, Cads, Blender, Video editing.. maybe through Wine / Proton ) to be ported to Android natively.

            WSL is there way how to get even that some of 2% of Desktop Linux users which, not use Windows because Linux does sometimes something better (which always will be true).

            Linux will stay with us because you can simply share whole virtual machine / OS image.. which is not possible with Windows/MacOS/iOS because there is not free version (if MS would be under big pressure they can make it overnight, Linux cant get missing Windows features (as compatibility with all existing SW) overnight).

            Only way for Linux Desktop to win its actually give normal user better feature set, more stable environment (missing graphical safe mode, clumsy GUI, text configs and fixing things by some terminal commands, caseSensitivity, half working updates, have to learn directory structure / OS internals, is not the way.. ).. and ideally run existing Windows software/hw with full compatibility and running better than on Windows.. or wait until Microsoft very bad decision, when they will shot themselves to leg and will not fix it (that is always possible).

            So far is Linux mostly failing to deliver better experience when windows are supported on same HW, also because its still unable to get rid of its mainframe past and lets educate user how to things not easiest way but our right way attitude.. Linux has time until Google will move Android to desktops, after that it would be even harder then now. There could be only change of one "evil" ruling company for other MS->Google.

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