What next?

[duby229]

Compiz does work until I'm using Firefox (which unfortunately I use often.) At that point, the window lacks the close/minimize/resize buttons which all of the other windows do have (weird) and when scrolling the mouse/window freezes, often for several seconds. If I'm not using compiz, these problems are not evident.

For a long time now, I've grown used to using compiz to select windows and desktops--I'm highly visually oriented and to me it's the primary reason I don't use a Mac. So to have a system which now allows me to move around on my desktops but once I'm at an application I use commonly (Firefox), it's somewhat frustrating to have to then unswitch compiz.

Using gstreamer-settings to unset Xv didn't seem to make any difference.

Any other ideas?

Many TIA,
Craig

P.S. Another place where I can see quite a difference is when I'm running video in iTunes inside VMware. If compiz is on, even in fullscreen exclusive mode, the video is really choppy. Gstreamer-settings unsetting Xv didn't help. If I turn off compiz, the problem disappears.

Likewise, if I'm running AutoCAD 2007 inside VMware, I can't use it as the cursor freezes often with compiz on. Turning compiz off, the problem goes away.

Both of those applications don't bother me so much as watching video or using AutoCAD I'm inside that app for a long time, so turning compiz off then on is no big deal. But Firefox in Fedora is bothersome, as I'll often be moving between desktops (flipping around the desktop cube) cutting and pasting, etc.

Your usage scenario is exactly the market that fglrx was designed for. What I'd do at this point is file a bug report with ATi. Whether it is the fault of the driver, or the fault of X is totally irrelevant. The problem exists and that is what matters. It's ATi's responsibility to allocate the resources necessary to fix that problem....

It's problems like these why Open Source development is --far-- superior to closed development, and exactly why I think fglrx should be dropped and replaced by a single open source driver.

[craign]

Your usage scenario is exactly the market that fglrx was designed for. What I'd do at this point is file a bug report with ATi...

Thanks, Duby, somehow, strangely, even less mondo $ for my ATI card which in some substantial ways is inferior to its inexpensive NVIDIA predecessor, your post heartens me. If I can be part of a concerted argument to make ATI better, at least that's something positive. Which place would be most effective to file my bug report?

TIA,
Craig

[craign]

...It's problems like these why Open Source development is --far-- superior to closed development, and exactly why I think fglrx should be dropped and replaced by a single open source driver.

Been thinking about this. Why do these hardware vendors hang on to their proprietary software? I would think that the hardware vendor that open sources their software would have a huge advantage in selling their hardware. Am I missing something?

[RobbieAB]

Yes, you are missing the fact that the hardware vendor may not own all the software in the drivers. You are missing the fact that there may be commercially valuable methods encoded in the drivers.

We all know how much difference a good driver can make, now are you asking ATI to let nVidia have a look at their drivers?

[craign]

...We all know how much difference a good driver can make, now are you asking ATI to let nVidia have a look at their drivers?

From my perspective as the consumer, I would think that would be in ATI's best interest. The reason why I bought an ATI board is it provided similar hardware to NVIDIA but at a lower cost. What I've experienced is that this board is outperformed by my old NVIDIA board in substantial ways that I will experience every time I use a web browser. So in two years, when I replace this board, I will remember (1) that it was a substantially greater pain to install the Fedora drivers than for NVIDIA, and (2) an inexpensive NVIDIA board outperformed a top of the line ATI one in ways that I'll likely still be experiencing at that time. My conclusion will be to buy an NVIDIA board when I will (invariably) replace my ATI board in two years.

If, however, ATI works well on Linux in two years, I might consider another ATI board. From reading (that I should have clearly done before buying this board, mea culpa) about ATI's history of releasing Linux compatible drivers, my guess is that the only what ATI graphics will be competitive will be if they open source their driver code to accelerate their software development cycle.

Linux isn't going away, and the user share isn't getting smaller. A business plan for ATI based on closed driver software will result in losing me as a customer (and I can't imagine that I'm alone,) but one based on open source software will keep me and many like me using ATI products, and I can't imagine resulting in a loss for those who choose to use other OSs. So yes, I'm suggesting that ATI should let the entire world look at their drivers because their hardware will then be usable for an important part of their market share. I still don't see what I'm missing, other than a backward looking desire to keep something secret which seems like it should be secret, a very 1980s approach.

I'm also still wondering where the most effective place would be to submit my bug report to ATI, so if anyone has that URL, I'd be grateful.

[RobbieAB]

A few points:

1) Current top-end nVidia is having problems as well, and in some cases are (it might be were now) being out performed by older nVidia cards.

2) Drivers are critical, so if ATI release an open-source driver, what is to stop nVidia copying ATIs magic recipes and mixing them with nVidias secret ones? Result? nVidia out-perform ATI on the same price range across all platforms.

3) ATI don't own all the code in the drivers.

Nothing you have said answers either of points 2 and 3, so...

[craign]

1) Current top-end nVidia is having problems as well, and in some cases are (it might be were now) being out performed by older nVidia cards.

That may be, but it's a whole lot easier to install NVIDIA at this point on Fedora. While that may not be reason enough to choose NVIDIA from a company engineer's perspective, consumers tend to follow the path of least resistance.

2) Drivers are critical, so if ATI release an open-source driver, what is to stop nVidia copying ATIs magic recipes and mixing them with nVidias secret ones? Result? nVidia out-perform ATI on the same price range across all platforms.

This isn't software in a vacuum--it accompanies a hardware device. Nothing will stop NVIDIA from copying all of ATI's code, but as long as ATI provides comparable hardware at lower cost, I the consumer will buy it. And as the underdog, I would imagine ATI would want to do anything to keep my business.

3) ATI don't own all the code in the drivers.

I'll admit I don't know what ATI does and doesn't own (how could I in a closed environment?) but I'll bet the acceleration of software development in an open source environment would more than make up for the code ATI doesn't currently own.

Imagine a world where ATI is the preferred graphics hardware by Linux users because the Linux community is writing its drivers! Or perhaps you are an ATI software engineer worried about losing his/her job in such an environment--that's the only remaining reason I could imagine for this line of defense

[Dandel]

firefox can be run in another method... by any chance is the bugs your having happen when you visit websites that use flash?

oh and also, note that flash has 2 different versions now, which run with different results.

Flash Player 10 ( currently beta, but fixes a lot of linux based bugs with flash. )

Flash Player 9 ( current stable release, and has a lot of problems on various websites, but still worth checking out. )

and as a quick note, you can find out which version of flash you have by loading this page.

[craign]

firefox can be run in another method... by any chance is the bugs your having happen when you visit websites that use flash?

By "another method" do you mean turning off compiz? I can do that, but clicking compiz to KWin every time I change desktops gets old fast.

The disappearance of the close/minimize/restore window widgets happens in Firefox no matter if Flash is running or not, and the scrolling freeze and general freeze of the window and cursor happens on sites without Flash (just tested it.)

Thanks for trying to help,
Craig

[Dandel]

For now, i can tell you how to completely disable the special features of flash, all you need to do is install the openssh server and run it over that... as follows...

ssh -XC localhost firefox

running it like that will completely remove the accelerator that is enabled for flash.