Originally posted by droidhacker
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Originally posted by nanonyme View PostThink of the big picture. This would lead into Microsoft AMD GPU's to lose Microsoft certificates since they can't do DRM anymore. This would lead to that OEM wouldn't be allowed to sell the cheap versions of Windows with computers that have AMD GPU's. Think what this would do to sales.
If a MAJOR GPU vendor, like AMD suddenly was TOTALLY DENIED DRM, their customers would NOT be shut out! DRM would simply be altered.
The fact that the DRM is already broken means that there is nothing to gain by locking anyone out of it. HDCP is dead. The only DRM left is the input DRM, and this can all be done in software without any involvement of the GPU.
If AMD were to lose DRM, it would be implemented in SOFTWARE, and the security of the software-DRM would be as strong as current hardware-DRM is (which is obviously not strong at all since it is broken). No customer would lose DRM. Regular consumer (i.e. non-technical) customers wouldn't even KNOW about it since these lockouts don't happen instantly. The software solution would be implemented BEFORE the DRM revocation even went through.
And HDCP being dead? This won't make ANY difference to a consumer. As already shown, the bitrate is WAY too high for a casual consumer to deal with. In fact, this is guaranteed to have NO effect on consumer usage of DRM-infested media. The place where this MIGHT be used is in capturing/splitting/etc., the output of a satellite receiver or cable box.
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Ehm, "would lead into AMD GPU's to lose Microsoft's certificates" to clarify.
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Originally posted by droidhacker View PostSo they'll deny new DRM-infested titles on AMD chips. Cry me a river. The customer might not like this in the short term, but long term, boycotting DRM might help.
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Originally posted by droidhacker View PostYou mean government regulation?
I'd disagree with some of your predictions about the outcome; in any case there are a couple of other scenarios with outcomes much worse for us. Even if I had a full UVD+DRM documentation on my desk and the means to publish it anonymously, I don't think I would. IMHO it's not worth the risk and the collateral damage. But you're free to disagree with that.
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Note: I'm only discussing the theoretical aspects of this. I'm not advocating that anyone go off and actually do it.
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Originally posted by rohcQaH View Postuhm, what?
When jail time is an option, you'd think he'd have different issues to contemplate than his "usefulness" to whatever cause.
And as I said, obviously in his case, the risk exceeds the benefits -- both to him personally, as well as to society in general.
Also remember that overseeing the OSS-drivers is only half of bridgman's job. He's also responsible for some unspecified things related to that DRM stuff he likes to talk about so often (what a coincidence ).
So, should someone break their DRM, guess who'll have to pick up the pieces? I wouldn't assume he'd be too happy about that.
last but not least, RE'ing their DRM would change a lot. Ok, you can watch your videos GPU accelerated for a while.
But even if bridgman manages to release both AMD's and NVIDIAs DRM, it'll cost both companies money,
and guess where budget cuts hit first? Maybe some OSS effort which doesn't have a measurable ROI anyway?
And one way or another, the MPAA is going to react, and that rarely turns out well for their customers.
The root cause we'd all like to see destroyed is a totally different one. DRM is just a symptom.
It would work itself out like this;
1) First stage is vendor A decides they don't want to intentionally limit their customers any more, so they drop HDCP.
2) MPAA learns of this, so blacklists vendor A's keyset.
3) In the face of no longer being able to provide DRM content to their customers any more, vendor A hires Hack-RM to develop a way around the DRM so that their products continue to provide the content.
4) Vendor B sees this and decides to follow vendor A and switches to Hack-RM.
5) MPAA tries to figure out ways to deal with this hack and implements DRMv2 and enables vendors C through F with it.
6) A new company arrives... MPBB. They have a great new scheme for DRM, so they sell it to some of the content providers saying that MPAA's DRMv1 got broken, how can you trust their DRMv2.... so now we have a competing DRM standard.
7) Some of the content providers switch to MPBB's DRM and start shipping stuff with it.
8) Hack-RM starts working on MPBB's new DRM and MPAA's DRMv2.
9) For technical reasons, vendor D and F can't upgrade any of their equipment to MPBB or DRMv2, so if any of their customers want to see any of that, they'll need new equipment.
10) Hack-RM has gotten around MPBB.
11) D decides to software-upgrade their old customers to Hack-RM for both MPBB and DRMv2. New hardware gets official DRMv2, Hack-RM for MPBB.
12) F decides to forget about their old customers altogether, and go official for both DRMv2 and MPBB.
13) Content providers are selling content in DRMv1, DRMv2, and MPBB.
What hardware will deal with what?
14) Customers get wind of the entire situation and realize that D's OLD hardware can decode EVERYTHING.
15) Some hardware cloner in China starts cloning D's OLD hardware and it starts spreading.
16) At some point as this spirals out of control, the customers are getting thoroughly confused about what device does what. New forms of DRM are showing up every day, nothing will play content in ALL of the forms. People end up buying content for a while and quickly realize that its a crapshoot whether it will play or not -- virtually ALL begin resorting to downloading the content decrypted from the internet and quit purchasing content. At least from the internet, they know that it'll play for them.
17) facing a huge drop in sales, the content providers realize that it is because of the confusing situation with regards to DRM. They say f-it and begin selling their content DRM-free, because at least SOME of the consumers will buy it, with the confidence that it will actually WORK.
And, of course, somewhere in the mix, MPAA tries to form a cartel among content providers. Some of them join, some of still don't like MPAA. It doesn't last long because they're all trying to undermine each other's bottom line.
And that is how DRM would die without government regulation.
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If the _AMD_ implementation of the DRM was cracked then pirates would only laugh and jawn (ripped versions are on the web anyway) and a legeon of angry FLOSS supporters would go after the cracker with burning torches for making AMD stop giving out documentation and working drivers, me included.
I'm serious.
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Originally posted by droidhacker View PostBah! Don't give me that.... I can tell by the things that you say that you have an unscratchable itch to give out all the restricted super-secret DRM stuff that you can possibly get your hands on -- free to the world, however, I know that you're not going to because we both know that you are far more useful out of jail than letting the DRM out and spending decades in lockup.
If completely reversed, I know that you'd secretly be cheering. Everyone would.
When jail time is an option, you'd think he'd have different issues to contemplate than his "usefulness" to whatever cause.
Also remember that overseeing the OSS-drivers is only half of bridgman's job. He's also responsible for some unspecified things related to that DRM stuff he likes to talk about so often (what a coincidence ).
So, should someone break their DRM, guess who'll have to pick up the pieces? I wouldn't assume he'd be too happy about that.
last but not least, RE'ing their DRM would change a lot. Ok, you can watch your videos GPU accelerated for a while. But even if bridgman manages to release both AMD's and NVIDIAs DRM, it'll cost both companies money, and guess where budget cuts hit first? Maybe some OSS effort which doesn't have a measurable ROI anyway? And one way or another, the MPAA is going to react, and that rarely turns out well for their customers.
The root cause we'd all like to see destroyed is a totally different one. DRM is just a symptom.
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Originally posted by bridgman View Postwe don't want information in public that could impact our ability to ship a robust DRM implementation on other OSes.
If completely reversed, I know that you'd secretly be cheering. Everyone would.
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