NVIDIA Publishes Code For X Synchronization Fences

[mugginz]

This argument has always been about SPECS. The lack of specs is making Linux desktop dependent on one company and their binary software.

But does the lack of specs from nVidia de-legitimise their closed driver?

The counterarguments go on about how much better the 3d performance is using the blob and how CUDA this and VDPAU that.

Sometimes 3D performance it the main determinant of whether to use an open or closed driver. That's assuming the option to use either is on the table.

But people like me would like specs. Once we have specs, you can CUDA and VDPAU all you want.

But we have that now with the nVidia drivers without specs. So when I need that functionality I'll need to use the blob. If I restrict myself to only open drivers then I no longer have access to that stuff.

Sure it's great if nVidia supply specs. All sorts of good outcomes can be derived from that. We should continue to ask for them. We don't need to slag them of as well.

And if a request for SPECS keeps people replying about WoW on Wine and special 3d software in professional CAD companies, then I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with these people.

The request for specs is fine and should be made, they're not saying "nVidia, were don't want specs, please stay only with the closed driver"

I won't take your CAD and your render farm away from you, I just want specs so we can have free drivers.

So do I. While I ask for specs from nVidia I can at the very same time use their closed driver. If you think boycotting their hardware is going to get them to bend over and release specs that's your decision to make.

Yes, I am an idiot for wanting specs, I'm an extremist and I am evil, and it is completely understandable that righteous people are ridiculing my FPS count (on Quake2 engine!!! FFS!!!) and explaining how RMS just needed an editor, but I still want teh specs.

FPS and CUDA and VDPAU and SLI and all this stuff is all fine and dandy, but they are not specs. You can't talk about how great the VDPAU is when I'm talking about specs.

Nvidia is contributing to X. This is very nice. But we actually want specs. Intel released specs. Good Intel. AMD released specs. Good AMD. Nvidia hides specs. And then you hear about CUDA this and VDPAU that. Fine, good, people can use it. But what about specs? Bad Nvidia.

How difficult is this?

So is AMD bad as well? They don't release specs for their UVD stuff. Are you going to be consistent here?

[pingufunkybeat]

Do you feel that running Linux with a closed driver is against this philosophy.

Yes I do.

But I never claimed that YOU have to feel the same way about it.

Let me run a free OS with free drivers. You run whatever you want.

[mugginz]

Nope, there were also complaints from closed driver users who were upset about what they perceived as a diversion of resources away from fglrx. The general concern was that fglrx had started to improve but they were worried those improvements would stop before the driver reached the level that they wanted to see.

As I said earlier, people were asking AMD to divert resources away from the open drivers to the closed ones to scratch their own itch for a better fglrx. They were asking AMD guys to do this. I don't recall a request for the entire community to drop open drivers. Perhaps I missed those requests.

[mirv]

But does the lack of specs from nVidia de-legitimise their closed driver?

To a degree in some cases. If nvidia drop support for a card, then it's pretty much well gone as usable under Linux. Open source drivers don't really suffer from this problem.
Vendor lock-in can be nasty.

Is there an intermission soon? I want to grab some food from the candy bar.

[mugginz]

Yes I do.

But I never claimed that YOU have to feel the same way about it.

Let me run a free OS with free drivers. You run whatever you want.

And I never claimed you have to run closed ones either.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on our stance regarding the use of closed drivers on Linux.

It's the LACK OF OPEN DRIVERS that is making Linux completely dependent on the closed drivers.

I just don't agree with this.

[pingufunkybeat]

So is AMD bad as well? They don't release specs for their UVD stuff. Are you going to be consistent here?

Sure I'd like them to release this too. If the Hollywood lawyers don't let them do this with current hardware, I expect them to design it better in the future so at least the non-DRM bits can be exposed.

In the meantime, they have released the specs needed for modesetting, 2d/EXA, Xvideo, memory management, 3d and others. All that is legally possible, in other words.

Surely you see the difference between this and Nvidia, who expect you to reverse engineer your hardware just to know how to change the fucking resolution? *


* might be slightly exaggerated

[mugginz]

To a degree in some cases. If nvidia drop support for a card, then it's pretty much well gone as usable under Linux. Open source drivers don't really suffer from this problem.
Vendor lock-in can be nasty.

Is there an intermission soon? I want to grab some food from the candy bar.

If nVidia drop support for a card then that compromises the use of that card going forward but doesn't damage their driver as it stands now. Given their direct support for legacy cards there's no indication at the moment that nVidia are a "cut and run" kind of operation.

While AMD needed to recently drop support for some cards in fglrx for technical reasons nVidia have themselves done a pretty decent job for legacy hardware.

[mugginz]

Sure I'd like them to release this too. If the Hollywood lawyers don't let them do this with current hardware, I expect them to design it better in the future so at least the non-DRM bits can be exposed.

But here you acknowledge that validity of restricting the release of IP but haven't yet posted your evidence that nVidia is completely free to release their IP but choose not to because they're bad.

[mirv]

I'll just chime in that there was some discussion from nvidia a while ago about why they don't open their drivers - I might try look for it in a moment (it's on phoronix somewhere). Will post a link if I find it.

[mugginz]

Is there an intermission soon? I want to grab some food from the candy bar.

See the bouncer at the door. He'll give you a ticket to get back in.