Apple M2 On Linux Performance Against AMD Zen 4 Mobile SoCs

[Dukenukemx]

What are you talking about? Apple is one of the biggest and longest hardware manufacturers! Know your history! Also they invest way more in R&D!

Apple took the ARM design and implemented it with a GPU design derived from Imagination. They will fall behind AMD and Intel just because they don't have that kind of engineering. It's just like PowerPC when that fell behind Intel eventually.

Of course Michael is a developer, he created PTS and I was talking about PTS (Phoronix Test Suite) being inadequate these days to test correctly!

He's not the developer of Asashi Linux and their kernel.

Also, Michaels compares a fanless machine with a machine with fans, and you compare server grade cpus with entry level consumer cpu without fans?

Blame Apple for not putting a fan. Not like Apple has a history of good cooling design. Also what server grade CPUs? He tested Apple against a mobile handheld gaming device and a laptop.

You dont seem to know anything you are talking about, but you are posting youtube videos instead of articles, so thats a given...

Why are Apple fanboys here on a Linux website? Pretty sure they don't run Linux.

[Dukenukemx]

On the ad blocking issue, Michael, I'd suggest that you take some time to browse Phoronix with ads. I used to browse all sites with ads until a year or two ago, but finally gave up because ads are so obtrusive these days, including on Phoronix, that I often just closed the web page in disgust. I realise that sites use ads to make money, but if the choice is between just not visiting the site and visiting it with an ad blocker, I'd rather do the latter. AdBlock Plus still lets some ads in, but they're usually the more tolerable ones. I hope that the money from these ads does go to the site.

I did tip in the past, and if Phoronix had a Patreon I'd probably support it there. I'm also fully willing to browse with ads, but only if I find them reasonable. I don't find full screen pop up ads to be reasonable.

I haven't turned off Adblock in years and the last time I did for Phoronix it looked like this. Too many websites that obliterate the webpage with ads. My suggestion is to start selling Linux mugs and T-shirts like the Linus Tech Tips guys.


aqua teen pop up ads.jpg

[mdedetrich]

That has nothing to do with the CPU ISA, it's an accelerator. It's like integrated GPU. Are you saying the integrated GPU is tied to the x86 architecture for example?

So what you want is cheating benchmarks because ARM sucks. Cope harder.

Nope I am saying that AI extensions to Apples ARM CPUs are analogous to Intels AMX. Also simplifying a bit, but x86/64 is more of a kitchen sink ISA compared to x86/64, the whole point of ARM is that the base ISA is really small and you are meant to add the extensions you want.

There are also the issues that coder pointed out, a lot of the code tested has been hand optimized for decades on x86/64 but not for ARM.

[Weasel]

Nope I am saying that AI extensions to Apples ARM CPUs are analogous to Intels AMX. Also simplifying a bit, but x86/64 is more of a kitchen sink ISA compared to x86/64, the whole point of ARM is that the base ISA is really small and you are meant to add the extensions you want.

There are also the issues that coder pointed out, a lot of the code tested has been hand optimized for decades on x86/64 but not for ARM.

AMX is part of the ISA though, but in this case I'd agree it should be left out, partly because it's specialized (as long as it's left out on either side, not just for x86).

[Dukenukemx]

There are also the issues that coder pointed out, a lot of the code tested has been hand optimized for decades on x86/64 but not for ARM.

It also doesn't help that Apple has zero involvement in the Linux kernel. It's great you guys like to talk about the potential about Apple's Silicon, but potential is wasted energy. You can talk about all the potential missing from Apple's Silicon but in the end you'll likely not see a huge difference. Of course Apple is free to contribute to the Linux project like AMD and Intel does on a regular basis. Instead of taking the Wine and DXVK code and locking it behind their Toolkit with a license while not contribution anything to these projects.

[mdedetrich]

AMX is part of the ISA though, but in this case I'd agree it should be left out, partly because it's specialized (as long as it's left out on either side, not just for x86).

The thing is, this is all pedantic distinctions which in reality is irrelevant. Whether its an "accelerator" or an ISA "extension" it doesn't matter, because Apple has a SoC (System on Chip) design which means that every Apple Laptop/Desktop has this functionality. We aren't talking about discrete accelerators here, with Apple its actually the opposite.

In other words, not targeting these extra instructions is about as "smart" in reasoning as refusing to support SSE on X86/64. If you look at software that deliberately targets Apple Silicon, they use all of the extensions for this reason, its stupid not to do so.

It also doesn't help that Apple has zero involvement in the Linux kernel. It's great you guys like to talk about the potential about Apple's Silicon, but potential is wasted energy. You can talk about all the potential missing from Apple's Silicon but in the end you'll likely not see a huge difference. Of course Apple is free to contribute to the Linux project like AMD and Intel does on a regular basis. Instead of taking the Wine and DXVK code and locking it behind their Toolkit with a license while not contribution anything to these projects.

Cool story bro

[Dukenukemx]

Cool story bro

Bro, do you even Linux?
only linux.jpg

[Weasel]

The thing is, this is all pedantic distinctions which in reality is irrelevant. Whether its an "accelerator" or an ISA "extension" it doesn't matter, because Apple has a SoC (System on Chip) design which means that every Apple Laptop/Desktop has this functionality. We aren't talking about discrete accelerators here, with Apple its actually the opposite.

In other words, not targeting these extra instructions is about as "smart" in reasoning as refusing to support SSE on X86/64. If you look at software that deliberately targets Apple Silicon, they use all of the extensions for this reason, its stupid not to do so.

But that doesn't matter when you compare general computing ISAs, like ARM vs x86 in this case, for general purpose calculations not specialized accelerators.

[mdedetrich]

But that doesn't matter when you compare general computing ISAs, like ARM vs x86 in this case, for general purpose calculations not specialized accelerators.

But thats the whole point, you can't generally compare these ISA's because they are completely different beasts. x64 is CISC in design which means it contains everything including the kitchen sink where as ARM is RISC, its base ISA is incredibly small since its designed to scale from small micro-controllers all the way to desktops/servers. Thats why ARM has this giant matrix of extensions/profiles.

If you were comparing MIPS to ARM or RISC V to ARM that would be a different story.