Apple M2 vs. AMD Rembrandt vs. Intel Alder Lake Linux Benchmarks

[Anux]

Here is an interesting document describing this difference (and others): https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/docu...ility%20primer

Give me little time to read up on that, I might actually have been wrong.

[Raka555]

In my case they turned on when running JDK 8 under rosetta (couldn't get a native ARM version of JDK 8 working on mac)

Maybe try this: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto...oads-list.html

[mdedetrich]

The SIMD code I ran made them turn on quickly (within one or two minutes IIRC). Turning on the 4 Neon units on the high perf cores is stressing the beast! That being said I never had any throttling, the fans do their job. In fact I find that machine too cold to put it on my lap.

In my case they turned on when running JDK 8 under rosetta (couldn't get a native ARM version of JDK 8 working on mac)

[mdedetrich]

I won't dispute your argument that Apple M1/2 are not fully ARMv8 compliant as I'm not sure of two things: AArch32 is not available at EL0 (I don't think it's the case but I might be wrong), and I'm not sure Arm disallows the removal of AArch32 from ARMv8.

AArch32 on ARMv8 in practice is definitely optional (and by practice I mean outside of Apple's chips). Remember we are talking about an ISA that historically was used in a cut through IOT/embedded industry where its completely normal to save 50cents per chip and putting unnecessary silicon on a chip when most users of ARM compile from source anyways.

I haven't read the developer docs in question but in summary its definitely optional, not only from actual reality of how the chips are built but also the fact that pretty much all compilers treat it as optional but most critically its nothing specific to Apple's ARM chips.

[ldesnogu]

I also have an M1 pro 14" and fans only go on when stressing CPU for around an hour. Also a developer

The SIMD code I ran made them turn on quickly (within one or two minutes IIRC). Turning on the 4 Neon units on the high perf cores is stressing the beast! That being said I never had any throttling, the fans do their job. In fact I find that machine too cold to put it on my lap.

[mdedetrich]

If that really pissed Apple off, don't you think they would have done as Sony did with the PS3? Just lock the bootloader and the machine is tied to signed OS images. That doesn't mean they'll help porting Linux, but I don't think that irritates them.

Regarding MBA and the lack of fan, a huge proportion of MBA users will never notice. They just browse, listen to music, write mails and so on. As a developer, a fanless Mac is not an option and I got myself an MBP M1; fans almost never turn on even when I compile large codebases. I nonetheless need those fans as I sometimes run heavy SIMD multi-threaded code and that pushes the CPUs enough that active cooling is needed.

Don't forget, most people here are not average users and what we want is not what the vast majority of users want

Yeah this is quite hilarious considering that Apple intentionally left the bootloader for the new Macs completely open.

Source: Asaha Linux, the guys porting Linux to M1/M2.

I also have an M1 pro 14" and fans only go on when stressing CPU for around an hour. Also a developer

[mdedetrich]

Then I phrased it poorly, sorry. What I was saying is that the vast majority of Mn laptops are not going to developers, they're going to users for whom a low-end laptop (not Chromebook-tier, but certainly not a 5950 with a 3080 and 64GB) would be exactly as viable other than in at best battery life, and that they're being bought not because their users have any need for that level of portable power, but because they're middle managers who "have to" have better equipment than the peons, that sort of thing. That is, that for the majority they're status symbols / rewards / etc first, and pieces of "necessary" technology either second or not at all.

IOW, you may be one of the exceptions, but you *are* the exception, not the common case.

I disagree.

With Macbook Air you are right, with Macbook Pro you are dead wrong, that entire demographic is mainly creatives/programmers.

Like if you go to a facebook/google campus/office you will see like 80%+ of programmers have a mac. Even if you look at projects like home-brew (macos specific package manager) and see the ridiculous number of installs if has this is quite obvious

[ldesnogu]

The reason Linux is being ported is because people want it and it pisses off Apple, just like it pissed off Sony to get to see Linux on the PS4 and we all know how well Sony likes Linux on their consoles. Historically Apple created its software from open-source projects, but Apple's developers rarely contribute much code back. Microsoft contributes more code to Linux than Apple ever has. Apple is a shit company.

If that really pissed Apple off, don't you think they would have done as Sony did with the PS3? Just lock the bootloader and the machine is tied to signed OS images. That doesn't mean they'll help porting Linux, but I don't think that irritates them.

Regarding MBA and the lack of fan, a huge proportion of MBA users will never notice. They just browse, listen to music, write mails and so on. As a developer, a fanless Mac is not an option and I got myself an MBP M1; fans almost never turn on even when I compile large codebases. I nonetheless need those fans as I sometimes run heavy SIMD multi-threaded code and that pushes the CPUs enough that active cooling is needed.

Don't forget, most people here are not average users and what we want is not what the vast majority of users want

[Dukenukemx]

dude you earned your fool status the hard way.
credit is given to the people who earns it...

I would refrain from using names on forums. Not only can you get banned but it makes you look like you don't have a proper response. It also makes me look bad when you look bad, commenting me.

no i am 100% sure i do not want any mobile device like smartphone or tabled or notebook with a fan.
i did see so many devices go down because of dust alone no thank you.

When a device has dust it essentially has no fan. CPU's have been able to lower their speeds to keep themselves from burning up and destroying themselves for over a decade. The difference here is that Apple willing doesn't include a fan, and causes throttling. If dust is bad because heat is bad, then no fan is stupid. Also these aren't mobile phones or tablets.

so really no thank you.-.. i do not want a mobile device with a fan.

Keep in mind only the Macbook Air models are fanless. The rest like the M1 Pro and Max always come with a fan. Also, lots of laptop manufactures choose to let the fans run slow despite temperature, as to appeal to the consumer. Running 95C+ is not ideal, and the fan should run faster. I've have an old Dell XPS M140. The GPU died because the fans are setup to run slow. This is also when Nvidia put shit solder in their chips and you have to heat flow the GPU to fix the issue. But the fans ran slow regardless of temp, and there is software called i8kutils which is even on Linux to control these fans because Dell is stupid.

This is why I got big into cooling because too often computers die from heat. Heat is the # 1 killer of computers. It's not always the CPU or GPU either. You don't want anything to get hot enough to burn your finger. Running a CPU to 95C+ is not good, and it doesn't matter if Apple says it's OK. Every manufacturer says it's OK, and it's always wrong. The only difference here is that Apple purposely lets them get hot because Apple cares more about aesthetics than functionality.

The fact that the M2 Macbook Air slows down means it needed a fan. This was even an issue on the M1 Air's that people found creative ways to make it better.

dude i do not buy these M1/M2 apple devices and the reason is the bad linux support.

but apple can always hire people and fix the linux drivers for this hardware.

You live in some sort of fantasy if you think Apple will ever work on Linux. They have Mac OSX, and if you don't like Mac OSX then they'll fix it to make you like it. That is how Apple do. Apple has never contributed to Linux in any sort of way. You see Apple on this list? I see Intel nearly on top, but no Apple. The reason Linux is being ported is because people want it and it pisses off Apple, just like it pissed off Sony to get to see Linux on the PS4 and we all know how well Sony likes Linux on their consoles. Historically Apple created its software from open-source projects, but Apple's developers rarely contribute much code back. Microsoft contributes more code to Linux than Apple ever has. Apple is a shit company.

[ldesnogu]

I think it was stackoverflow but can't find it right now. Witch is not the end because I never claimed it to be true. I made a hypothetical guess and mentioned it to explain my way of thinking.

And I agreed to your conclusion that a fair comparison would be to cross-compile the same code base (though I'd add you would have to compile the cross-compiler itself on both machines, not all distributions use the same flags when building software).

You mean the one that has nothing about missing backwards compatibility in it?

So a section describing how v4/5 and v6 legacy behave different from v6 and v7 on an ARMv7 chip proves its not backwards compatible?

I'm speechless. I show you a section that explicitly explain how ARMv4/v5 instructions behave differently from ARMv7 and you still claim compatibility is ensured?

Note that ARMv6 had a compatibility bit to enable the same behavior as ARMv5, but it was removed from ARMv7 thus making some ARMv5 software not portable to ARMv7 and hence ARMv8.

Here is an interesting document describing this difference (and others): https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/docu...ility%20primer

Stop being ridiculous, that guy worked for Arm's Application engineering group. He writes actual ARM code, not just a call center dude.

I hate to use that kind of argument because it proves nothing but since you started with the credential stupidity, I've been working for Arm for 17 years including some years in the design team of AArch64. And giving how thick headed you are, here you go: https://sourceware.org/pipermail/bin...st/077788.html
From that you can find me on LinkedIn and see what I do. And that doesn't prove I'm always right, I'm not. It just proves your argument is stupid or given my work you'll have to admit that I'm always right

(And I'm not speaking for Arm, all of my posts are personal opinions.)

I guess another link from the net won't convince you either? http://landley.net/aboriginal/architectures.html#arm

No, it won't convince me. You can link whatever random posts on the net you want, the ARM Architecture Manual clearly describes an incompatibility between ARMv5 and ARMv7+ architectures.

Or maybe an example, do you have a RasPi?
I've got the Pi3 (v8 with 64 bit) and I can install a ARMv6 compiled Raspbian, Michael did a test here maybe 2 years ago so you don't have to take my word for it.

Edit: Sorry the test was v7 vs 64 bit https://www.phoronix.com/review/raspberrypi-32bit-64bit but if you have a RasPi >= 3 or know someone you can download the old raspbian vor v6 and run it.

I didn't say v6 is not compatible with v7. You were claiming ARMv8 is compatible with ARMv5 and I said that's wrong. And it is wrong.

You're right, so my claim that Apples M1/2 is not standard ARM v8 will only hold true if they didn't implement A32 and T32 at EL0. Some guys on the net say no: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27277351 but i can't find a definitive answer on Apples dev-sites.

I won't dispute your argument that Apple M1/2 are not fully ARMv8 compliant as I'm not sure of two things: AArch32 is not available at EL0 (I don't think it's the case but I might be wrong), and I'm not sure Arm disallows the removal of AArch32 from ARMv8.