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Apple M2 vs. AMD Rembrandt vs. Intel Alder Lake Linux Benchmarks

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  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by arQon View Post

    I look forward to the inevitable "rebuttal", which will doubtless be as devoid of anything but more lies and excuses as the previous ones. I won't have time to reply to it, but don't let that stop you.
    Yeah its full "I don't like this figure because its too high so I will ignore it because it doesn't suit my argument" without providing any real evidence of your reason. You can prove anything you want by pulling your own figures out of your ass, you want a trophy?

    See you later, also pro tip don't waste your time with a wall of text in your reply. There are more productive ways to spend your time rather than being unable to deal with being wrong once in a while.
    Last edited by mdedetrich; 19 August 2022, 03:14 AM.

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    anyone with a uni level degree or a doctorate in statistics will instantly tell you how massively wrong you are.
    I know the US education system is kind of a joke, but I doubt even they really don't get as far as long division until college.

    > Do a course in statistics, then come back.

    oops. So what's your excuse going to be when I tell you I already have? "It only counts if it's a PhD from Harvard", maybe?

    It's funny how "a ridiculous number of installs" was something you considered proof at the start of this. Now that it's come back to bite you in the ass it's suddenly just a random number. The only reason I'm still in this thread *isn't* to get you to admit defeat, it's because it's literally comedic watching you back away from your own words while simultaneously rewriting the script on the fly. It's been a nice relaxing way to wrap up the nights and crack a smile at the end of the day.

    Sadly, I'm out of time now and busy for the rest of the week, so I'll put you out of your misery. Homebrew's homepage doesn't work, but the stats pages for the time periods do. Note that these are package downloads, so they overestimate the activity, possibly substantially: e.g. 24M installs of Chrome in a year doesn't mean 24M Chrome *users*, it means slightly over 2M. (Unless Chrome is gaining market share, which it isn't).
    Over the past year, the top packages are:
    #1 iterm2 362,542 3.17%
    #2 visual-studio-code 360,739 3.15%
    #3 docker 288,850 2.53%
    #4 google-chrome 287,401 2.51%
    #5 adoptopenjdk8 237,162 2.07%
    #6 firefox 215,795 1.89%
    After that you're in the <200K range.

    It's worth reminding anyone who stumbles across this later that Homebrew doesn't include any Apple tools. For all we know, there are eight million Xcode users writing apps for IOS, and those wouldn't show up here at all. Other than that, I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions, since if I do it we'll just have to sit through another cycle of arguments on par with the Republican denial of climate change.

    Download stats for the package manager itself - the "ridiculous number of installs" - are either unavailable or obviously wrong (like, 40M+/mo), so there doesn't seem to be any backing for that claim at all. I mean, unless you need a doctorate to work out that it's unlikely there would be more unique installs of something than there are devices to install it to. I guess we know who actually needs to "Do a course in statistics, then come back". :P

    > If it's ~1M, that's in 1 in 27, and we're both terrible at this.

    As it turned out even that wasn't particularly close, but it's in the right ballpark, especially since this is ignoring at least some (and likely a majority of) IOS devs. That aside though, being very generous with rounding, roughly 1.4% of Macbooks are used by developers. Note that this does include Airs, but since the discussion was about the M1 - and mdedetrich objected strongly to the idea that anyone was buying an M1 for the sake of better battery life rather than better performance - that's apparently the group we're using.
    It's worth pointing out that the Homebrew stats also include *older* Macbooks running on Intel silicon, and Macs in general, so this potentially *over*-estimates the number of developers on M1 machines by a large amount, but it seems reasonable to do so since we're looking at installs over the past year, and can expect that any developer on an older Macbook already has everything installed.

    Only barely related, but that's an impressively high ratio of Firefox installs to Chrome ones. Mac users are obviously a lot better about testing browser compatibility than most, though obviously they also have a lot more incentive to.

    All told, 1 in 1000 is probably a better guess than I thought for "people actually compiling code etc" (rather than just editing Lamda for microservices, running JS on web pages, and so on) in situations where an x86 laptop was also an option; but again, the Homebrew numbers don't take IOS development into account other than for incidental cases where the same developer is also responsible for the backend.

    It's crazy just how obsessed some Apple users are. "The M1 is a really good chip" isn't enough for them: it has to be "M1 is magic, and 140% of developers use it: not only is there literally nobody using x86 hardware any more, M1 went back in time and converted developers from before it was released". It really is cult-level stuff: start with a lie, and when you get called on it change the lie to something else but still claim the original was true anyway, then go all out attacking the infidel to steer the conversation onto them and away from anything that might risk someone else questioning the lie.
    I'm certainly not expecting anything as trivial as a few numbers to persuade anyone that deep in the cult, but they might satisfy the curiosity of those of us who live in reality.

    I look forward to the inevitable "rebuttal", which will doubtless be as devoid of anything but more lies and excuses as the previous ones. I won't have time to reply to it, but don't let that stop you.

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  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by bamache View Post
    Does anyone actually have any Apple M* laptops?
    Yes, I do

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  • bamache
    replied
    Does anyone actually have any Apple M* laptops?

    Leave a comment:


  • qarium
    replied
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Your definition of real work is stupid then
    not more stupid than the other definitions people tell you here. and they demand statistical proof.
    i do not demand statistical proof.

    the idea that a apple macbook is not for real work is insanity...

    Leave a comment:


  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by qarium View Post
    i would say this: if the macbook is only with MacOS it would be clear that it is not of any use for real work but as soon as you can install linux you are ready to perform real work.
    Your definition of real work is stupid then


    Originally posted by arQon View Post

    So, either you were - let's say "mistaken" - about the "ridiculous number of installs", or ...?
    It's a simple question, using very simple math, which would resolve a large chunk of the uncertainty that you're saying makes this just a matter of opinion, yet you continue to avoid it. Actions speak louder than words, and yours are telling me that you don't believe your original claim either. I think we can consider this settled, and save us both a bunch of wasted typing, so let's just do that.
    No it really is not that simple, anyone with a uni level degree or a doctorate in statistics will instantly tell you how massively wrong you are.

    Do a course in statistics, then come back.

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Well whats your definition of generally then?
    Well, literally it would be "more often than not", i.e. 50%+, but that's a much higher bar than I'm suggesting here: I'd consider even just 10% to be substantive.

    > You can either provide proper statistical information which likely doesn't exist (and most importantly you haven't provided)

    That's what the sales figures are for. You claimed a "ridiculous number of installs of homebrew" as support for your claim that Macbooks were - almost exclusively - the province of developers etc. When asked to provide proof of that, you declined. And then did so again when I gave you the sales figures that made up the rest of the equation that would provide that "statistical information" you're pretending is the problem here. And then did so again in this most recent post.
    It's not about me being correct, it's about getting some ballpark figures - which you're suddenly very reluctant to see happen, and instead are now arguing wouldn't be relevant anyway.

    So, either you were - let's say "mistaken" - about the "ridiculous number of installs", or ...?
    It's a simple question, using very simple math, which would resolve a large chunk of the uncertainty that you're saying makes this just a matter of opinion, yet you continue to avoid it. Actions speak louder than words, and yours are telling me that you don't believe your original claim either. I think we can consider this settled, and save us both a bunch of wasted typing, so let's just do that.

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  • qarium
    replied
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Well whats your definition of generally then? And even if we use a fairly liberal definition of general there is also a very strong counter claim to what you are saying which is that Macbook (especially pros) are expensive enough that most people would only justify buying them if it really did produce value (i.e. "real" work). Of course they are exception, you have wealthy people that will just buy something because its expensive but that isn't specific to macbooks and again to quantify this we would have to deal with the nasty world of stats
    If you think that you have shown that you are "correct" and that I am incorrect but not really being honest about it, you are sadly mistaken.
    You haven't provided any real evidence whatsoever. You can either provide proper statistical information which likely doesn't exist (and most importantly you haven't provided) or we can argue from what we know using existing real technical details as to why Macbook Pros specifically can absolutely be used for real work.
    the joke is: you can do real work on any computer even "GameBoy" on youtube there are 1000 of example in how to perform real work on a GameBoy... the idea that Macbook is not for real work is complete insanity.

    i would say this: if the macbook is only with MacOS it would be clear that it is not of any use for real work but as soon as you can install linux you are ready to perform real work.

    Leave a comment:


  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by arQon View Post

    Then it's ideal for this, which is what I was trying to get established, because this isn't generally a place where Apple users hang out.

    > This question is meaningless because the original hypothesis you made is completely opaque and ill defined. Originally, many pages back you claimed that Macbooks are not suited for "real work".

    Untrue, and untrue. I said that Macbooks generally weren't *used* for "real work" - as you know, since you quoted that piece in your comment about how they were good development machines - which you and I both defined as "actually pegging the CPU".
    Well whats your definition of generally then? And even if we use a fairly liberal definition of general there is also a very strong counter claim to what you are saying which is that Macbook (especially pros) are expensive enough that most people would only justify buying them if it really did produce value (i.e. "real" work). Of course they are exception, you have wealthy people that will just buy something because its expensive but that isn't specific to macbooks and again to quantify this we would have to deal with the nasty world of stats

    Originally posted by arQon View Post
    You've put *way* more effort into avoiding the issue than answering it would have taken, which is generally a very solid hint that you've realized you made a mistake but you're too proud to admit it, so now you're floundering and just throwing out as many excuses as you can in the hope someone will fall for it. (Which seems a waste of effort really: there's only you and me that care at all, and since I can read you're unlikely to convince me).

    Maybe you're just really confused. It happens. You did at least accept that the Airs are vanity items, so that's something.
    I'd have *liked* something a bit more concrete than my wild guess at what the numbers are, because I'm endlessly curious that way, but I get the impression from your response that I was at worst in the right orders of magnitude, so I guess that'll have to do.

    > And if you wondering why a lot of "real" programmers use Macbook Pro's

    I'm not wondering about it at all. Most of my friends have ever since Apple abandoned 68K, which is long before laptops became jewelry. But they're a tiny minority of Macbook users overall - which was my point, despite your recent attempts to pretend it wasn't.

    If you ever change your mind, feel free to let us know what the answer was. Nobody's going to ridicule you for simply being wrong on a subject where everyone involved was just making their best guess in the first place.
    If you think that you have shown that you are "correct" and that I am incorrect but not really being honest about it, you are sadly mistaken.

    You haven't provided any real evidence whatsoever. You can either provide proper statistical information which likely doesn't exist (and most importantly you haven't provided) or we can argue from what we know using existing real technical details as to why Macbook Pros specifically can absolutely be used for real work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anux
    replied
    Oh yes, pointer casting is such a genius trick. Gotta love those micro optimizations that never can justify their gains over their risk. Good thing we have rust comming along.

    Also drivers and firmware that use assembler might not run if specific instructions were used.

    Leave a comment:

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