AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 6850U "Rembrandt" Linux Benchmarks

[Dukenukemx]

Secondly if you normalize for power efficiency, nothing from AMD/Intel comes close to the M1 Pro (14 or 16 inch). To put things into perspective, as stated before the M1 pro is compiling codebases 2-10x for laptops in the same class and while doing so generates so little thermal heat that to date the fans on my M1 pro haven't even spun while having a battery life of ~12-18 hours.

I doubt you've unplugged that MacBook Pro 14" while having it compile. Tests have shown that while using all cores the M series chips use the same amount of power as AMD or Intel. Also the thermals... you should really look at the temperature while it runs too. They easily reach 95C while doing those sorts of tasks. Apple just chooses not to run the fans at high speed during heavy load.

Its not just the M1 CPU that happens to be faster, its also the fact that since its a SOC the memory is also on the same chip that the CPU/GPU which means the memory latency is ultra low. That is ontop of the fact that the M1 pro memory is 256-bit LPDDR5.

Would you believe that's not a good thing? CPU and GPU don't have the same needs for memory. Also sharing the same memory is a problem since only one of the two can access the memory at a time. Seperate memory for the GPU and CPU is faster. It's just cheaper for Apple to do this.

[Dukenukemx]

Secondly if you normalize for power efficiency, nothing from AMD/Intel comes close to the M1 Pro (14 or 16 inch). To put things into perspective, as stated before the M1 pro is compiling codebases 2-10x for laptops in the same class and while doing so generates so little thermal heat that to date the fans on my M1 pro haven't even spun while having a battery life of ~12-18 hours.

I doubt you've unplugged that MacBook Pro 14" while having it compile. Tests have shown that while using all cores the M series chips use the same amount of power as AMD or Intel. Also the thermals... you should really look at the temperature while it runs too. They easily reach 95C while doing those sorts of tasks. Apple just chooses not to run the fans at high speed during heavy load.

Its not just the M1 CPU that happens to be faster, its also the fact that since its a SOC the memory is also on the same chip that the CPU/GPU which means the memory latency is ultra low. That is ontop of the fact that the M1 pro memory is 256-bit LPDDR5.

Would you believe that's not a good thing? CPU and GPU don't have the same needs for memory. Also sharing the same memory is a problem since only one of the two can access the memory at a time. Seperate memory for the GPU and CPU is faster. It's just cheaper for Apple to do this.

[mdedetrich]

I doubt you've unplugged that MacBook Pro 14" while having it compile. Tests have shown that while using all cores the M series chips use the same amount of power as AMD or Intel. Also the thermals... you should really look at the temperature while it runs too. They easily reach 95C while doing those sorts of tasks. Apple just chooses not to run the fans at high speed during heavy load.

Sorry to break it to you, but having your CPU run 95C is not a problem as long as its in spec (which in apples case it is). The comparison in of itself is absurd anyways because the mere fact that the Apple SOC can run without fans at 95C (considering its performance) is astonishing. Try turning off the fans on a modern AMD/Intel laptop and see how long it lasts until it throttles. I mean the SOC is so efficient that the Air doesn't even have a fan (and yes while its not as fast as the Pro series its still extremely fast for a 13" inch profile laptop).

Would you believe that's not a good thing? CPU and GPU don't have the same needs for memory. Also sharing the same memory is a problem since only one of the two can access the memory at a time. Seperate memory for the GPU and CPU is faster. It's just cheaper for Apple to do this.

Good luck getting faster memory GPU memory than 256-bit LPDDR5 on a consumer grade laptop. The only thing faster (taking into account the memory is on SOC) is GDDR 6x and that memory is so power/heat inefficient you wouldn't want that in your laptop (its one of the reasons why RTX 3080/3090 gets so hot).

[Dukenukemx]

Sorry to break it to you, but having your CPU run 95C is not a problem as long as its in spec (which in apples case it is).

I'm sure that's fine in the long run.

The comparison in of itself is absurd anyways because the mere fact that the Apple SOC can run without fans at 95C (considering its performance) is astonishing. Try turning off the fans on a modern AMD/Intel laptop and see how long it lasts until it throttles. I mean the SOC is so efficient that the Air doesn't even have a fan (and yes while its not as fast as the Pro series its still extremely fast for a 13" inch profile laptop).

Fun fact, it can't. The Mackbook Air 13" with the M2 has no fan and it thermal throttles. Also my laptops never have audible noise, mostly because I don't trust any manufacture with their cooling, including Apple. I will remove the heatsink and put Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut along with K5 Pro for the VRM's because those things get stupid hot too. The regular plain Jane M1 can probably get away with just a heatsink, but that changes quickly when you get to the Pro and Max models. You have the MacBook Pro 14" which means you have the M1 Pro with 33.7 billion transistors, and not the M1 regular with 16 Billion.

Good luck getting faster memory GPU memory than 256-bit LPDDR5 on a consumer grade laptop. The only thing faster (taking into account the memory is on SOC) is GDDR 6x and that memory is so power/heat inefficient you wouldn't want that in your laptop (its one of the reasons why RTX 3080/3090 gets so hot).

In most cases the M1 Pro's and Max's can't match a RTX 3060, let alone a RTX 3080/3090. Just cause it has high bandwidth doesn't mean it has high performance.

[mdedetrich]

I'm sure that's fine in the long run.

It is, if you argue otherwise I am sorry you have no idea how electronics work

Fun fact, it can't. The Mackbook Air 13" with the M2 has no fan and it thermal throttles.

And yet its still the fastest and most silent laptop of its size

Also my laptops never have audible noise, mostly because I don't trust any manufacture with their cooling, including Apple. I will remove the heatsink and put Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut along with K5 Pro for the VRM's because those things get stupid hot too. The regular plain Jane M1 can probably get away with just a heatsink, but that changes quickly when you get to the Pro and Max models. You have the MacBook Pro 14" which means you have the M1 Pro with 33.7 billion transistors, and not the M1 regular with 16 Billion.

You know what does more damage/issues with your laptops is? Its actually fans, they bring in dust which can cause further problems on your laptop. Also I have used liquid metal on laptops, its still nothing compared to M1 pro.

Like there is conclusive testing for this done by cross platform apps that compile to MacOS sillicon. Intel sillicon is notorious for being some oft he most inefficient out there, AMD is a lot better but still behind.

In most cases the M1 Pro's and Max's can't match a RTX 3060, let alone a RTX 3080/3090. Just cause it has high bandwidth doesn't mean it has high performance.

You clearly didn't watch the video fully, the reason why most MacOS apps can't match the performance for GPU is because there are very few native MacOS apps that actually takes advantage of their GPU sillicon. And even if the performance doesn't fully match, any laptop with RTX has absolutely terrible battery life and thermals, the RTX is the most power hungry GeForce series to date.

If you look at MacOS apps which are fully native and do GPU acceleration (such as video editing apps), then yes the MacOS comes ahead.

[Dukenukemx]

It is, if you argue otherwise I am sorry you have no idea how electronics work

Heat will wear down electronics and cause them to fail. Heating up and cooling down often will expand and contract the chip, which is very bad. This isn't a rule just for computer chips but all machinery.

You know what does more damage/issues with your laptops is? Its actually fans, they bring in dust which can cause further problems on your laptop. Also I have used liquid metal on laptops, its still nothing compared to M1 pro.

Not a fan of liquid metal. To give you an idea my Ryzen 4700U laptop when running Borderlands 3 in Linux Mint will not go beyond 70C. I should note that 70C is with AMd lying about the temps by like 23C something degrees. That's with me polishing the heatsink,and applying Kryonaunt on it. Putting high quality thermal pads for the VRMs. I also used aluminum tape for the fan and heatsink to make sure no air generated would leak into the inside. I plan to apply the K5 Pro in place of the thermal pads to help further cool down the laptop, it just hasn't arrived yet. The fan doesn't ramp up that you can hear it. I got a Intel Macbook Air 13" next to me that I did a similar enhancement because when it comes to cooling, Apple is the worst. BTW, the Macbook in Louis Rossmann's video is an Intel with a heatsink and no fan on it. All I can say is, Apple. He also gives you a bit of history in how Apple's cooling has broken some CPU's due to heat.

Like there is conclusive testing for this done by cross platform apps that compile to MacOS sillicon. Intel sillicon is notorious for being some oft he most inefficient out there, AMD is a lot better but still behind.

This is true. The reality is Intel and AMD screwed up. Intel screwed up many years ago by not doing a damn thing, until now that Apple dumped them and it's really not enough. AMD screwed up by making Zen3 and RDNA2 about 2 years ago and just now releasing laptops with these technologies. Nobody is on 5nm like Apple was since 2019. Apple couldn't pick a better time to make their own CPU's.

You clearly didn't watch the video fully, the reason why most MacOS apps can't match the performance for GPU is because there are very few native MacOS apps that actually takes advantage of their GPU sillicon. And even if the performance doesn't fully match, any laptop with RTX has absolutely terrible battery life and thermals, the RTX is the most power hungry GeForce series to date.

This is the nature for Apple going alone in making their hardware. They're using ARM in a x86 world, which means good luck getting software written in ARM. They're also pushing for Metal in a Vulkan world. Most applications written in Mac OSX use MoltenVK by Apple's own admission. "According to Apple, more than 148,000 applications use Metal directly, and 1.7 million use it through high-level frameworks, as of June 2017." 1.7 use Metal through high-level frameworks, which is a nice way of saying MoltenVK.

This is just a lot of potential that will not be realized in years. When you can finally run applications in ARM with Metal, you will still lose to a dads computer.

If you look at MacOS apps which are fully native and do GPU acceleration (such as video editing apps), then yes the MacOS comes ahead.

You're confusing GPU use with Apple's fixed function hardware that exclusively does video encoding an decoding. The hardware is very amazing and I hope AMD, Intel, and Nvidia take notice and try to mimic Apple's actions in future hardware, but it is not an example of GPU acceleration. If you're using any of the following codecs then you will see benefits, minus the ones that don't list encoding. Guess which codecs a lot of reviewers are using?

[mdedetrich]

Heat will wear down electronics and cause them to fail. Heating up and cooling down often will expand and contract the chip, which is very bad. This isn't a rule just for computer chips but all machinery.

Yes but you are also massively overblowing the problem to an absurd degree. I will guarantee you that the M1 sillicon chip running at 90 degrees is not going to cause your problems for decades at which point you will most likely have much more pressing issues

Not a fan of liquid metal. To give you an idea my Ryzen 4700U laptop when running Borderlands 3 in Linux Mint will not go beyond 70C. I should note that 70C is with AMd lying about the temps by like 23C something degrees. That's with me polishing the heatsink,and applying Kryonaunt on it. Putting high quality thermal pads for the VRMs. I also used aluminum tape for the fan and heatsink to make sure no air generated would leak into the inside. I plan to apply the K5 Pro in place of the thermal pads to help further cool down the laptop, it just hasn't arrived yet. The fan doesn't ramp up that you can hear it. I got a Intel Macbook Air 13" next to me that I did a similar enhancement because when it comes to cooling, Apple is the worst. BTW, the Macbook in Louis Rossmann's video is an Intel with a heatsink and no fan on it. All I can say is, Apple. He also gives you a bit of history in how Apple's cooling has broken some CPU's due to heat.

Right, or you can argue from the other way around which is rather than blaming Apple for not re-engineering the entire chassis for their laptop, you can blame Intel for allowing the thermals for their CPU's to get so out of control that it forced pretty much every other laptop manufacture to entirely re-design their laptops.

I know that Apple has done a piss poor job of cooling their Intel macbook's, I have an 8 year old one that I stopped using because of precisely that issue. Depending on your view point, either fortunately or unfortunately Apple prioritises ambient noise more than other laptop manufacturers (they wan't their laptops to be silent). However in comparison Intel has done an absolutely atrocious job of handling thermals, being stuck on 14nm for a decade doesn't help.

This is the nature for Apple going alone in making their hardware. They're using ARM in a x86 world, which means good luck getting software written in ARM. They're also pushing for Metal in a Vulkan world. Most applications written in Mac OSX use MoltenVK by Apple's own admission. "According to Apple, more than 148,000 applications use Metal directly, and 1.7 million use it through high-level frameworks, as of June 2017." 1.7 use Metal through high-level frameworks, which is a nice way of saying MoltenVK.

This is just a lot of potential that will not be realized in years. When you can finally run applications in ARM with Metal, you will still lose to a dads computer.

ARM is already making inroads into desktop, if it wasn't for Apple people would have argued that ARM on a laptop/desktop would have been a complete pipedream (and this is what people were saying before M1). And the performance for their first generation M1 Pro chips is really baffling, I know that Geekbench isn't entirely accurate, but my M1 pro for single core performance is higher than an AMD desktop 5950x CPU and multithreaded is ~10% lower. Even when giving some buffer that result is ridiculous considering we are comparing a laptop to a full fledged desktop CPU.

You can thank Microsoft for completely screwing the desktop ARM market by making an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm. Rosetta on M1 has shown that you can easily get almost native x86/64 performance on ARM just by hardware accelerating the most bottlenecked X86/64 functions in the sillicon unlike the the microsoft shitshow of slow ARM software emulation (on an already slow Qualcomm sillicon).

Heck you can even do crazy stuff such as using ARM as a the microcode that gets generated from x86/64 (no modern Intel/AMD CPU directly executes x86/64, instead it gets converted internally to a microcode which is what gets executed). Maybe this is what Apple is already doing?

You're confusing GPU use with Apple's fixed function hardware that exclusively does video encoding an decoding. The hardware is very amazing and I hope AMD, Intel, and Nvidia take notice and try to mimic Apple's actions in future hardware, but it is not an example of GPU acceleration. If you're using any of the following codecs then you will see benefits, minus the ones that don't list encoding. Guess which codecs a lot of reviewers are using?

Yes and the M1 pro's GPU wrt 3D acceleration is also incredibly capable, the problem is no real games have either been natively compiled for the M1 or if so done incredibly badly. There has already been synthetic 3D acceleration benchmarks which puts the M1 pro at approximately a 3070 mobile, which is not the fastest mobile GPU but then again we are dealing with a 14" machine that doesn't even spin up fans in normal circumstances (again I am hammering the point regarding efficiency, and not just raw performance by pumping the sillicon with as much voltage as you can get away with).

Of course metals doesn't help here wrt helping game devs/engine creators to port games/engines to Apple M1 and I have been critical of this. Its understandable why Apple did metal at the time (Vulkan didn't even exist when Apple was making Metals, rather it was Mantel that was closed source AMD) but Apple should definitely transition to Vulkan. Unlike OpenGL which in general is terrible API, Apple doesn't have a real excuse nowadays not use Vulkan.

[markd89]

Not a fan of liquid metal. To give you an idea my Ryzen 4700U laptop when running Borderlands 3 in Linux Mint will not go beyond 70C. I should note that 70C is with AMd lying about the temps by like 23C something degrees. That's with me polishing the heatsink,and applying Kryonaunt on it. Putting high quality thermal pads for the VRMs. I also used aluminum tape for the fan and heatsink to make sure no air generated would leak into the inside. I plan to apply the K5 Pro in place of the thermal pads to help further cool down the laptop, it just hasn't arrived yet. The fan doesn't ramp up that you can hear it. I got a Intel Macbook Air 13" next to me that I did a similar enhancement because when it comes to cooling, Apple is the worst. BTW, the Macbook in Louis Rossmann's video is an Intel with a heatsink and no fan on it. All I can say is, Apple. He also gives you a bit of history in how Apple's cooling has broken some CPU's due to heat.

What do you mean by lied by 23*C?

I just ordered the Lenovo p16s. Would the 6850U benefit from better thermal paste and the other mods?

Thanks!
Mark

[Dukenukemx]

What do you mean by lied by 23*C?

I just ordered the Lenovo p16s. Would the 6850U benefit from better thermal paste and the other mods?

Thanks!
Mark

From what I understand is that AMD likes to lie about the temperature being hotter than it is to ensure nothing bad happens to the CPU. Tctl is temperature offset while Tdie is actual temperature. Ranges between AMD chips but it's anywhere from 10C to 20C higher than it really is. Every manufacturer goes cheap on cooling so I would, even if you paid for the extended warranty. Kryonaunt is really worth it over other thermal pastes and it's not conductive electrically. mdedetrich mentioned liquid metal which I wouldn't just because it does react with copper and creates some strange reaction with it. A little metal polish on the copper surface helps to remove oxidation and gives a nice bare metal surface for the thermal paste to work with. I used to put expensive thermal pads for VRMs and memory but I've switched to K5 Pro and it works so much better and it's cheap. Shipping is not as it's coming from Greece but good thermal pads can really get up there in price. Aluminum tape is great for making sure that air that passes into the heat sink so it won't leak out into the case and go to waste. Depending what the manufacturer did, you may or may not need to worry about using aluminum tape, as some do use rubber to seal between the fan and heat sink. Most manufacturers use this crappy foam that does nothing.

I did all this and my 4600U while running Borderlands 3 in Linux Mint just barely hits 70C according to Tctl. The Tdie reports just bellow 50C. Admittedly Borderlands 3 isn't the most demanding game to run on it, but that's about as bad as it'll get during gaming. I'll try video encoding next with Handbrake to see if I can get it hotter. I've done this dozens of times and you either lower the temp or you lower the fan noise, as some GPU's really like to maintain a hot temperature and will instead lower fan speed. Lower fan speed is nice but I'm aiming for lower temperature more so.