Chinese GPU Vendor Moore Threads Contributing To VA-API, FFmpeg

[tuxd3v]

Everybody spies on everybody, except that's governments spying on governments.


What makes China different and special is that their military hacks into US corporations, steals IP, and then feeds it to their state-owned enterprises and private sector. It's organized and routine, for them. The US has no such structure. The military and NSA have no incentives to do it.

The other thing China and Russia do is spy on, harass, and kill their own expats. China has even setup unlawful police departments, in the US, to harass their citizens living here & others who speak out against them. And Russia has been infamous in its high-profile assassinations.

Look the US and UK, and probably others too like Israel, and such, are the biggest spies in the world, they take what they can!
Does China is doing the same?Maybe they are, after all if its good for some, its good for all right?

The rest is propaganda out of the Murdock Journals to program public opinion..

The quantities too small to justify a mask are initial spins and research chips. If you're talking about chips with any real application whatsoever, then the production volumes shouldn't be hard to amortize the cost of the masks.

Yes and in Research and Development you need to check a lot, your designs, but any time you do changes to it, and require samples...you need to pay millions to a new photomask, that is where the situation is more dire.
However if you plan to build only 100k chips, you will have to pay millions in advance for that photomask...so a photomask is undesirable, and it can only be justifiable, if you build in the tune of millions perhaps, in that case you can dissolve the price of it by all those processors, and will be a small increment on each one, but still noticeable..

No, the cost of the actual production line and R&D needed to design a process node are far-and-away the biggest hurdles, both in cost and technology.

We are talking about different things here..

One thing is the cost of chip production, the other thing is the cost of R&D of the chips design, they are connected but they are not the same thing.
What I am referring to, is the cost of chip production...ex: try to make 100 chips, you will see that basically the price is the cost of the photomask for them..

Like I said, taking credit for everybody's work. Those parameters change with every generation. As for materials, quite a lot of the R&D is actually done by ASML's customers.

They can only take credit for the work they have done till recently, the rest is credit from others, specially from Germany Zeiss, which produce the lenses for those machines.

There's a ton of other IP, and if the contributions of "Russia" were so valuable, they should've had no problem securing licensing or other agreements to have access to ASML's technology and machines. However, I'm sure they & you are vastly over-inflating the real extent of their contributions and simultaneously downplaying all of the other R&D that went into those machines.

The Russians in the 90s had no other option...they went bankrupt..
However I do agree with you, that at least after 2010, or even 2014, they should have stopped from working with ASML.

In relation to licenses...in the broken world we have, you can see that a lot of countries are braking the Law, with trade wars, blockades, and stuff..do you think a license would have helped Russia?
I don´ t think so, because the technology Russia delivered was in Mathematical formulations and stuff, and ASML machines have a lot of components from a lot of countries, and they would never allow it to be delivered to Russia..that´ s why I think they should have stopped earlier their contributions to ASML..

I'll believe it when I see it.

I agree with you on that, specially because, in my opinion, they are pursuing "impossible paths"..but time will tell.

One of the problems they had in Soviet Union times, was that they burned a lot of resources in mega projects, that in the end, doesn´t served the interests of the populations, but instead only benefited Science.
They now are more grounded, but even then, I see from time to time, a desire to exhaust the country resources just for Science, and in my opinion that is very bad.
I hope the new generations that are now taking a active role in development help, to focus in solving society problems, instead of an absolute path for science.

I was amused upon recently discovering a list of missions to Mars. The Soviets/Russians track record is atrocious, and even the scope of their missions that succeeded tends to be very small. They or their partners only ever successfully landed one object on Mars, and all it did was send a partial image before going offline.

Afaik they never had an interest for Mars, Mars interest is a western thing..
However they where very interested in Venus and they did some research there.

I definitely respect Russians' capabilities, but they're no doubt under-funded and exist in a repressive environment that doesn't value free thinkers or provide good commercial opportunities.

I don´t believe in that...no one in the west respect them.

Because of that, their overall contributions to science and technology are more on par with a far smaller state like Israel.

Their contributions to Science are enormous, giant, a lot of things that we have today, indirectly they have soviet technology behind..ask Elon Musk,NASA and others..
Even new projects, like in the South of France the ITER project, has huge Russian contributions, the CERN, ASML,Boeing,Airbus and others..

https://www.iter.org/

If they'd embraced European values, they could be so much more. It's quite sad.

Typical British thinking..
You continue to misunderstand the Russians..
They don´t need to "Embrace European values.." or what that means..., they have their own values, and they are a independent country, we are the ones that need to respect that they have their own values, that need to be respected too, if that had happened we would all be in a better position today..

But sticking to Science, they can revolutionize the chip industry..if they find support in China,India, etc, in the long term 10/20 years they can do it.

[coder]

Look the US and UK, and probably others too like Israel, and such, are the biggest spies in the world, they take what they can!

Not industrial espionage.

The rest is propaganda out of the Murdock Journals to program public opinion..

Chinese state harassment of their expats and detractors is fact, not propaganda. Their famous GMail hack was aimed specifically at these folks.

We are talking about different things here..

One thing is the cost of chip production, the other thing is the cost of R&D of the chips design, they are connected but they are not the same thing.
What I am referring to, is the cost of chip production...ex: try to make 100 chips, you will see that basically the price is the cost of the photomask for them..

I'm not talking about chip design. We're both talking about chip production. Look at the R&D budget of TSMC and you'll see what I mean. Furthermore, look at how much their new and upcoming fabs are costing.

In relation to licenses...in the broken world we have, you can see that a lot of countries are braking the Law, with trade wars, blockades, and stuff..do you think a license would have helped Russia?

At least up to the point where they decided military conquest was a higher priority for them, I think it would've. However, once you start waging a land war in Europe, a lot of doors close to you. But, Putin clearly has his eyes set on taking the world back to the 19th century, not what it takes to succeed in the 21st century.

One of the problems they had in Soviet Union times, was that they burned a lot of resources in mega projects, that in the end, doesn´t served the interests of the populations, but instead only benefited Science.
They now are more grounded, but even then, I see from time to time, a desire to exhaust the country resources just for Science, and in my opinion that is very bad.
I hope the new generations that are now taking a active role in development help, to focus in solving society problems, instead of an absolute path for science.

If they had more resources, like from not shunning international trade & relations, then it would go a long ways towards alleviating the tension.

Afaik they never had an interest for Mars, Mars interest is a western thing..

The number of missions they launched (20, compared with 23 for the USA) says otherwise. Even in the past decade, they had two.

I don´t believe in that...no one in the west respect them.

Putin & Russian state media love to play the victim card. It's a classic tactic. Trump does it too. It's a good way to rouse public support and a good excuse to avoid having to think about why they're really disliked by the rest of the world. It gets tiresome, after a while.

The average person in the west didn't really think or have much opinion about Russia/Russians, at least before they started invading their neighbors. They remind me of insecure teenagers who are preoccupied with what they believe other people think about them and then misbehave because they think they have nothing to lose by it.

A better model is the Japanese and South Koreans, who both came up from absolute poverty, after WWII. They just rolled up their sleeves and got to work.

Their contributions to Science are enormous, giant, a lot of things that we have today, indirectly they have soviet technology

That's all backwards-looking. Today, Russia is mainly a petrostate and a haven for hackers and cybercriminals.

They don´t need to "Embrace European values.." or what that means...,

Be more like Germany, if you want to think of it that way. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, anti-corruption, and democratic values.

they have their own values,

Lately, that seems to be waging war and repressing their own people. Nice values.

You should read up on how Putin consolidated power, some time. Don't keep taking the word of Russian State media at face value. Do your own education from unbiased sources. You can find plenty of Russians decrying what's happened to their country under Putin, if you don't trust western sources.

they are a independent country, we are the ones that need to respect that they have their own values,

Respect is earned. I'll respect their independence when they respect others' independence.

As far as their values, I don't have to like them, but I think reform of their society is something the Russians, themselves, need to undertake. It can't be imposed from the outside.

I wish they felt the same about not meddling in others' affairs, but oh well.

[tuxd3v]

Not industrial espionage.

The bulk of espionage is about Industrial espionage, of course...its the reality,and the US sits on top of all that espionage by far..
But you already knew that...you just don't want to say it..

Chinese state harassment of their expats and detractors is fact, not propaganda. Their famous GMail hack was aimed specifically at these folks.

I don't know what you are talking about, but you are talking about a Gmail attack?
Is that what you call "harassment of their expats and detractors"??
cmon

I'm not talking about chip design. We're both talking about chip production. Look at the R&D budget of TSMC and you'll see what I mean. Furthermore, look at how much their new and upcoming fabs are costing.

I don't know in what way we can consider this, in relation to new lithography processes that we have talked previously..
What I was saying is that a machine with no photomask, and good quality is a revolution. If the monopoly is broken, machines will be a lot cheaper...everybody benefit.
Because currently, the cost of ASML machines are basically due to German Zeiss lens..they know that without them, there are no ASML.And they need a photomask.

At least up to the point where they decided military conquest was a higher priority for them, I think it would've. However, once you start waging a land war in Europe, a lot of doors close to you. But, Putin clearly has his eyes set on taking the world back to the 19th century, not what it takes to succeed in the 21st century.

Look I am not in the mod to discuss propaganda..

Ukraine was kiling Russians in Ukraine since 2014, Russia together with France and Germany created a way out of that mess, it was the Minsk agreements, but Ukraine decided to burn everything to the ground(Minsk1 and Minsk2) and continue to kill Russians..they got what they where waiting for after all..Ukraine can only blame themselves for what is happening...they created it!

Now you can like it or dislike it, but my point is...we should let this subjects out of discussion, because we will never agree..
You have a typical British mentality shaped by the Murdock media, and I have my eyes open..we will never agree, so better to let this subject out.

The number of missions they launched (20, compared with 23 for the USA) says otherwise. Even in the past decade, they had two.

Russians never had a big interest in Mars, they had in Venus, like I said Mars was a thing in the west only.
I don't know if they did missions to Mars, maybe they did, but it was not of their interest overall.
However in the future, maybe the Russians will pay more attention to Mars, because it is now known that Venus is a poor option.

Respect is earned. I'll respect their independence when they respect others' independence.

Respect is a given, we should not have to force countries into wars, just to be respected.That is criminal mentality...
more over ii shows your own weakness...if you really wanted to engage de Russians...why doesn't the UK sent its troops to harass the Russians??
You know why right?
But at same time you are forcing Ukraine to fight to the last Ukrainian pretending at same time you are very worried with Ukraine...its called Hypocrisy..
So much for the "European Values.."

As far as their values, I don't have to like them, but I think reform of their society is something the Russians, themselves, need to undertake. It can't be imposed from the outside.

You don't have to like them, but you have to respect them..if you want to be a civilized person, or society.
They like the way their country is run..you don't have the right to meddle in their country..like I said...start respecting them.

[coder]

The bulk of espionage is about Industrial espionage, of course...its the reality,and the US sits on top of all that espionage by far..
But you already knew that...you just don't want to say it..

There's literally no way for the NSA or CIA to sell stolen IP to the private sector. That's not their mandate, it's not their incentive, and it generally hasn't been necessary with the US leading in most sectors since the inception of those agencies.

I don't know what you are talking about, but you are talking about a Gmail attack?
Is that what you call "harassment of their expats and detractors"??
cmon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail#2010_attack_from_China

currently, the cost of ASML machines are basically due to German Zeiss lens..they know that without them, there are no ASML.And they need a photomask.

Then why is ASML's market cap $250 Billion, while Carl Zeiss AG's market cap is only $11 Billion?

Ukraine was kiling Russians in Ukraine since 2014,

Russia took Crimea and sparked a civil war in Eastern Ukraine, after they ousted a pro-Kremlin leader.

If Russia really had a good case to make about persecution of Russians, they would have gotten a UN Security Council Resolution to have UN Peace Keepers go in and provide security. The fact that they never even attempted such a move shows that they were merely using it as a false pretext for an invasion.

You can see this same pattern of behavior: Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria. It's all a pattern of behavior and fits in with an overarching plan of Putin's to reconstitute the Soviet Union. He's trying to be one of the great Czars, but he doesn't realize that era is behind us.

Now you can like it or dislike it, but my point is...we should let this subjects out of discussion, because we will never agree..

As long as you keep drinking Russian State propaganda like mother's milk, we won't. Try doing some independent fact-checking from unbiased sources.

You have a typical British mentality shaped by the Murdock media,

What's funny about this is that Murdoch's media outlets have generally been less critical of Putin than most.

Russians never had a big interest in Mars,

Then why did they send 20 missions? Only the USA sent more, with 23. Maybe they just didn't talk a lot about Mars, because they had so much trouble collecting any information about it.

I don't know if they did missions to Mars, maybe they did,

Again, here's a complete list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Mars

in the future, maybe the Russians will pay more attention to Mars, because it is now known that Venus is a poor option.

It was long known that Venus is a "poor option"!

Respect is a given, we should not have to force countries into wars, just to be respected.That is criminal mentality...

Again, I'll respect Russia's independence when they respect others' independence. It wasn't Ukraine who started that war. Zelenskyy even campaigned on taking a softer line with Russia and wanted to negotiate an end to hostilities in the East. Putin took that as a sign of weakness and tried to oust him from office.

more over ii shows your own weakness...if you really wanted to engage de Russians...why doesn't the UK sent its troops to harass the Russians??

Literally nobody wanted this war except Putin. NATO and the West doesn't want to spend all of this money and risk escalating the conflict, but they even more don't want Putin to start thinking he can just roll into a country of his choosing and take it over.

But at same time you are forcing Ukraine to fight to the last Ukrainian

Putin is the only one forcing them to fight. He could end the war tomorrow, if he simply pulled back his troops and left Ukraine alone.

You don't have to like them, but you have to respect them..if you want to be a civilized person, or society.
They like the way their country is run..you don't have the right to meddle in their country..like I said...start respecting them.

I already said that I think the job of fixing Russia is something only the Russians can do. Again, Putin is the one trying to perform regime change. He brought all this death and destruction by himself.

As for meddling, I wish Russia wouldn't meddle in other countries' affairs.

[Anux]

Then why is ASML's market cap $250 Billion, while Carl Zeiss AG's market cap is only $11 Billion?

Not sure what market cap has to do with that? I know a few people working for Zeiss and a few working for another company that works in conjunction with Zeiss. They all depend on each other and ASML is also dependent on the lasers that come from USA and everything in those machines is highly specific to reach the high standard. If one of their supplieres can't deliver there is simply no replacement in the short future.
And that's the only reason USA is able to dictate whom ASML is allowed to trade with. Atleast as long as ASML is limited in their production capacity and are able to sell all their machines.

As for meddling, I wish Russia wouldn't meddle in other countries' affairs.

That won't work. Only if no country meddles with other countries affairs.

[coder]

Not sure what market cap has to do with that?

The claim I was contesting is that most of the value in ASML's machines are from Zeiss. Were that true, you'd expect Zeiss to be reaping larger profits. I don't believe it, though.

That won't work. Only if no country meddles with other countries affairs.

Yeah, and I think Russia will always be looking for ways to have outsized influence in world affairs. I think our days of underestimating them are well and truly over.

[tuxd3v]

The claim I was contesting is that most of the value in ASML's machines are from Zeiss. Were that true, you'd expect Zeiss to be reaping larger profits. I don't believe it, though.

Well you can believe it or not, that is your problem.
The lens that Zeiss produce are the pinnacle of technology, and by far the most expensive thing in those machines!
And to be honest, I don't even know why ASML allow US to dictate to whom they sell the hardware...

In my opinion ASML should kick the US out, and produce the laser themselves..after all, its not very difficult to produce that laser.. they use a 60w 6khz laser, even china that doesn´t have a very strong base in Physics already have a 40w 4khz laser.. what China can´t do is the quality of the lens..

I think our days of underestimating them are well and truly over.

So now indirectly you confess that you "underestimated the Russians"...nice way to put things hugh?...its not only the UK, the US too, and maybe even some in the EU.
Had that not happened and Ukraine would have agreed to stick to International Law in the Minsk Agreements..and the people of Donbass would had agree, at that time, to be a autonomous region inside Ukraine.

Now after 8 years of genocide..they cannot be in Ukraine, the case is the same as Kosovo(it is a lot worst than Kosovo..but legally speaking its the same case).
And now the US is starting another war in Sudan...the cycle of violence never stops...

The case of Crimea, by International Law is settled, its not even a topic for discussion.

But sticking to another thing..
You spoke about RISCV fragmentation problem, with companies creating their own proprietary extensions...
That is the big risk in RISCV, and I think they should settle down as adults, and standardize everything, otherwise RISCV will not achieve the success that people where expecting from them.
Because software compiled for one platform will not run in another and vice versa, it will be a mess...vendor lock in..
Ventana has its own proprietary extensions,Sifive does the same,Chinese companies does the same...it will be a mess.

Not only that, take the case of binutils for example, it will have a huge size, its impractical..now just imagine for the rest of the toolchain, and the rest of the software stack..
In my opinion RISCV people should sit down have a very mature discussion, understand why those extensions are being created and standardize everything..before its too late.

[Anux]

The claim I was contesting is that most of the value in ASML's machines are from Zeiss. Were that true, you'd expect Zeiss to be reaping larger profits. I don't believe it, though.

Zeiss does much more than making lenses for ASML, they are big in sattelite sensors, photo/video lenses, and basically anything optical in militarry and mass surveiliance. If your market cap would have anything to say you would need to divide Zeisss' cap by ten or so.
But if Zeiss can't deliver then ASML can't deliver (you have seen what it did to Intel in the past ten years), any market cap has nothing to do with it. And yes Zeiss only delivers a small part of those machines and there are many other parts from other companies.

Yeah, and I think Russia will always be looking for ways to have outsized influence in world affairs. I think our days of underestimating them are well and truly over.

Just like most other bigger countries, not sure why you are so obsessed with russia. Arms race is not only classical military weapons, if russia wouldn't do it while all others continue they most likely wouldn't exist anymore.

You act like Putin woke up one morning and decided to conquer Ukrain. Russia is reacting to us western countryies heavily meddeling in ukrain, supporting and training their right wing militia that in turn murdered many Ukrainien that are pro Russia. If we had keept to our own, that war might have been avoided.
There were 2 trys to get peace there (Minsk 1&2) and ukrain agreed to both but never did what was agreed upon.
All that was allready predicted by respected american political scientist in 2015.
What would america do if russia starts to support a revolution in one of their neighbor countries? Watch and do nothing? Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?
Poking in a beehive will most likely end in bees stinging and in that state bees don't care if they die.

Sure Russias war is a bad thing as is any other war. But if russia had any other chance to resolve this they would have done so (and they tried as you see with the minsk agreement). They could have easily started their invasion in 2014 but they waited.

We should have all done much more to enforce a peacful solution (instead of making it worse), now it's to late and until one party looses the war, it won't end (and many innocents die). If Russia is the one that looses then we will probably see a atomic war. Nice, I'm so proud to be a part of mankind ...

It's really sad to see so many people falling for that dump propaganda that putin is just some crazy dude that has fun playin war. Is Putins goal to free the ukrainiens? Probly as much as USA telling everyone that they want to bring democracy to the world.
No there are most likely big financial interests behind any war but that doesn't mean there could be no peacful solutions to secure those interests.

[Anux]

In my opinion ASML should kick the US out, and produce the laser themselves..after all, its not very difficult to produce that laser.. they use a 60w 6khz laser, even china that doesn´t have a very strong base in Physics already have a 40w 4khz laser.. what China can´t do is the quality of the lens.

I think you highly underestimate those laseres, from their hompage:

To generate extreme ultraviolet (EUV) light, a CO2 laser fires two separate laser pulses at a fast-moving drop of tin. This vaporizes the tin and creates EUV light. It does this up to 50,000 times per second. Several multilayer mirrors to guide the EUV light to the wafer, shrinking the reticle pattern by a factor of four. The wafer stage positions the wafer under the light to within a quarter of a nanometer for each exposure, checking and adjusting 20,000 times per second.

Even if someone else would be able to produce those, there would still be patents and ASML needs to respect those patents if it wants to sell to the other half of the world.

Edit: And this wafer positioning system is also a part that is extremly difficult to produce and super expensive. I have no insight in pricing but I doubt you haven't either?

[tuxd3v]

I think you highly underestimate those laseres, from their hompage:

I am not underestimating them, but I think we should research on those lasers.

Even if someone else would be able to produce those, there would still be patents and ASML needs to respect those patents if it wants to sell to the other half of the world.

Maybe there are ways to circumvent those patents..but I don't know if its possible.
If it requires changes to the wave length, then we need to stop, because the lens are produced of a specific material for a wavelength of 13.5nm(those parameters where previously discovered by the Russians).If we change the wavelength then a lot of things have to change too.

Edit: And this wafer positioning system is also a part that is extremly difficult to produce and super expensive. I have no insight in pricing but I doubt you haven't either?

I don't know the prices...those things are not public, what I know is that the most expensive thing by far are the lens, and rightfully so.
We just need to remember that ~500kg in those machines are the best lens in the world by far..

Had the US being able to produce those lens...Intel would have being able to drop bellow 14nm, but they can´t...but they do have the same laser system in those machines..
So..ask yourself, why are they not capable to drop bellow 14nm..
Its the quality of the lens ofcourse..