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Rumblings in the Linux Audio World

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  • #51
    OSS4 may be improved, but missed the boat, IMHO.

    I have been using Linux as my home system since 1993. For a long time, OSS was the only way to get sound. It worked not too well, and could play only one sound at a time. Often I had to hunt down the process that was hogging /dev/dsp just to be able to play an mp3.
    Also, a commercial version of OSS was available. For a free system, I found it unacceptable to pay for what should be basic OS functionality: sound in all applications. At the time, software mixing of sounds did not exist in the commercial version, and my soundcard was supported.

    In short, OSS was the only game in town and it sucked. Then came ALSA, and it was a much more active developer group, and it was completely free. Their designs at the time were much better than OSS, and much more hardware supported, and free, so distros gravitated towards ALSA.

    In the mean time the software mixing was taken up by ESD and Arts. But they were limited and I found ESD lacking.

    Then came Jack and Pulseaudio. Jack is for pro audio and complicated stuff with filters and MIDI and such, not for the regular distro. You find it in distros like studio 64 and ubuntu studio. Pulseaudio is nice for normal users when it is set up right (but many distros fail at that, probably because it is conceptually tricky to get it right). It brings per-app audio mixing, seamless movement of streams from one sound card to another, network sound, bluetooth sound and much more.

    OSS4 came in a time that ALSA was already dominant, and I think they missed the boat. Similar to when once Netscape was king (like old OSS) and stagnated, and IE took the scepter (like ALSA), new mozilla/firefox(like OSS4) had to catch up and prove itself again.
    For instance, I read that OSS4 has not the amount of working drivers that ALSA has. For some it works great, and for others not at all.
    What was a disadvantage for OSS was the hold that 4Front had over it. It was their project and the kernel people only maintained a fraction of older OSS drivers. It was NOT good then, and ALSA was better.
    Maybe OSS4 is technically superior now, and simpler, but has the situation with 4Front changed? On the other hand, I read that ALSA these days is developing slower, and I read about worries over the project's health.

    What Linux needs, in my opinion, is a simple in kernel sound driver system, that exposes all modern sound card features to an api. Things like hardware mixing, 3D sound, multiple channels, low-latency, MIDI, etc. should all be supported. Like Gallium3D for audio. There also must be a user space daemon to handle per application audio streams (moving from one card to another), control over the mixing, or software mixing when the hardware does not support it. No software mixing in the kernel. Kernels should only be visited in system calls as briefly as possible, with the shortest interrupt latency possible.
    Also this daemon should handle A2DP (bluetooth), network sound and filter banks.

    If I understand the current situation right, my ideal system should be there when OSS4 and ALSA start pooling efforts, and create the in-kernel sound driver system, more along OSS4's design than ALSA's, but with ALSA's richer hardware support.
    And for the user space daemon a combination of the ideas of Pulseaudio and Jack would have led to a system that has both low latency, networking, bluetooth, super-flexible filterbank system and per-app mixing and moving of streams between cards or network sinks.

    It would be similar but better than Apple's `Core Audio?.

    The current situation has rightly been described as a `Jungle?.

    "Jungle" would not be such a bad name for a new, united linux audio system, by the way.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by hax0r View Post
      Everything is good actually for me , just a usual bash.
      I think you mean flamebait.

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      • #53
        After a long time, I tried ALSA again. I expected things to have improved in the years I stopped using it, and it did in some areas (dmix seems to work out-of-the-box now), but where it mattered for me, it still has problems. Audio lag is the main one. It goes away if using ALSA'a OSS emulation... LOL! ALSA seems to be better at supporting OSS than supporting itself.

        Another problem is the blockage; if I start an OSS application, sound stops working for all other apps. If I use the "aoss" tool, then it works OK, but the lag is back...

        Back to OSS4. Hope in the next 4-5 years the issues might get fixed.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by hax0r View Post
          I wish that nvidia produced great sound cards and supported them on Linux the same way that they support their 3D implementation
          Locked into x86 and support for old cards disappears as soon as it stops being profitable? Haha. We've already got Creative for that.

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          • #55
            a geforce 6 card is prolly not very profitable now days but its still supported under the latest driver.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by L33F3R View Post
              a geforce 6 card is prolly not very profitable now days but its still supported under the latest driver.
              because there are still boards sold with the 6150 onboard graphic.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by energyman View Post
                because there are still boards sold with the 6150 onboard graphic.
                And even if board wouldn't be sold there is quite long period still when they are actively used by large number of users so supporting users for that time is cheap PR investment. It doesn't require that much work to port the changes from newer branch to old support branch for new kernel/xserver support. Of course this might be too expensive if old driver architecture doesn't any more match the newer driver.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                  Back to OSS4. Hope in the next 4-5 years the issues might get fixed.
                  Your argument about "the O stands for Open" is very amusing to those of us who have been using Linux since 1995. The reason why we're not all using OSS4 now is precisely because the Open is OSS became such a sick joke.

                  It's taken OSS well over 4-5 years to fix its issues.

                  Hannu started OSS around 1992 IIRC. Originally it was free software. Later, after it had a strong near-monopoly position of Linux and other POSIX systems, Hannu started working with 4Front. All the new hardware drivers were made proprietary-only. The free software version was not updated, and lagged behind. New hardware wasn't supported, MIDI wasn't supported, full-duplex wasn't supported, thread-safety was non-existent, and there was no software mixing. (Originally, I'm not even sure if hardware mixing was supported on hardware that had it. Though hardware mixing has issues for professional users, since it resamples the streams.) ALSA was started separately by outside hackers (around 1997 or 1998 IIRC) to add these features and others and remain free.

                  The main Linux developers and distributions found the lack of freedom in OSS unacceptable. Hannu and 4Front claimed that they would eventually backport the new features in the non-free version to the free version, but this never happened. Eventually, the kernel maintainers added ALSA to the kernel (during 2.5 dev) and in 2.6 marked OSS as deprecated.

                  At first, Hannu and 4Front were confident that OSS would remain the standard for a variety of reasons, including all the legacy code and cross-Unix support. However, ALSA quickly started to dominate Linux, and Linux started to dominate the Unix market. Almost all the Linux distributions switched to ALSA as the default.

                  Finally, in 2007, Hannu and 4Front released OSS4 under the GPL. OSS4.x had existed as proprietary (though early versions) since way back in 2001 or 2002, around when ALSA was added to the kernel. Now it was finally free. (As far as we can tell; there are webpages that seem to say that it is not free, or requires licenses under certain situations. Those may be older webpages reflecting before the code was opened.)

                  The question is whether OSS has missed the boat. Many influential Linux developers and the kernel maintainers have long memories of how Hannu and 4Front tried to act like monopolists, in the way that people feared TrollTech would do with Qt and never did. (GNOME was started in large part over those fears; perhaps it existing and providing competition helped ensure that the fears never came true.) In addition, Hannu shows no sign of being to work on the latest hardware without being funded by people paying for a proprietary version. It's all very well and good for people who have hardware supported by OSS.

                  The people who matter just don't trust Hannu and 4Front after all these years, and don't trust their claims of reform. If OSS4 had been released as free earlier, it would still be the standard. But it's not and it's not trusted. It's in the same place as ALSA was back in the day, not officially supported by distros and something that you have to download and install yourself. Perhaps they'll earn back that respect and trust, perhaps not.

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                  • #59
                    the only thing missing in alsa was several apps sharing one of the legacy-oss devices.

                    And even that problem has been solved AFAIK.

                    There is no reason to use OSS anymore. Not one. It sucks, it is broken beyond repair (floating point in kernel space.). It is moribound. Don't lenghten its suffering.

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                    • #60
                      I don't really care about all that. All I care is that ALSA is broken and OSS4 is not. I'm going to use the non-broken thing. Floating point in kernel space is great for me. It allows me to hear sound and things happening on the screen in sync. The only way to have this with ALSA is to disable dmix. This is laughable. They better fix their code and make it fast. Unless that happens, ALSA is just a broken, half-assed piece of software.

                      And the OSS support in ALSA blocking everything else is not solved; if this functionality is enabled, OSS apps start lagging the same way as ALSA ones do. It-just-sucks. Period.

                      This thread is repeating the same stuff over and over again. I wrote several times why ALSA is broken for me, and the responses are always the same. I'm tired. Go read the thread. Don't try to convince me to use ALSA. I just did. It still sucks. And I suspect it will always suck. I just hope OSS4 will not disappear because if it does, it will leave me without good audio on Linux.

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