SIMD JavaScript Support Added To Firefox, Under Review For Chrome

[Luke_Wolf]

.NET runs on the Xbox 360, (under development for) the PS3 & PS4, and if Microsoft isn't stupid will run on the XBone, It also runs on the Wii

On the handheld side the PSVita (AFAICT based on their developer site) exclusively runs .NET, and I can't tell but I'm guessing you can also run it on the 3DS

Also obviously except for the Vita I can use C/C++ for any of the consoles, and C++ is the go to language for that kind of development anyway, Application distribution is handled either via physical media or through their associated digital distribution system and so as a result multiple binaries are not a massive concern as separate builds are required anyway.

Finally consoles are typically underpowered enough (the current generation is using netbook CPU cores) that they require device specific tuning in order to approach anything close to reasonable performance with modern graphics. Which means you need multiple versions of the code anyway.

I will note I do mobile and desktop development not really game development nor do I target consoles, so people who do please correct me if/where I'm wrong on the language support.

[Luke_Wolf]

And tailoring for different input types is easy as well. Right now there isn't a ready
API for asking for touch support but I can check for a platform that will probably
support touch (includes phone, mobile, tablet or touch in the User Agent) or platforms
that are nearly always touch (Android).
And no, I don't have to make any compromises at all.

If you're tailoring the interface for specific input and screen sizes you're not just 'scaling up' the UI which was my point. Now I will give you that using something like CSS to do this is nicer than having to generate a specific UI file for each interface type.

People seems very happy with Spotify even if it doesn't look native. Or look at Android
where overly other app looks completely different.

Well just because they're okay with the current situation does not mean they wouldn't prefer a better one

And I I do want it too look native everywhere, I can do that. I will just have to write
platform specific code for every OS, just as I would have otherwise any way. And I can
still keep all background code the same. Mostly it is CSS that would be changed.

Yes, and it can be more or less work on the native side depending upon if you're using the Qt way or the Mono way of going cross platform. That said if you've written your software properly the UI layer should be pretty trivial regardless.

I guess you mean Xamarin which does NOT run on Jolla and Ubuntu Touch for instance.
Also it requires writing platform specific code so it isn't even write once compile everywhere.

Yeah I meant Xamarin, and while Jolla is interesting to me from a user perspective, its marketshare is well past irrelevancy, however if they make it able to run android applications then actually yes I can, also you as stated above also have to write platform or at a minimum form factor specific code in order to make your UI scale so The web is no different here.

Also while you're focusing on the writing of platform specific code you're forgetting one major thing that makes it so that distribution in a platform specific manner is transparent to end users. The only people downloading and running binaries are using a PC, everyone else is using a distribution network, commonly called an App Store, or on linux a Package Manager to handle software distribution. Which means that a "universal binary" is only a relevant concept within the scope of PCs.

What do you mean with "not going full in on the static typing"? If you want to statically
type everything, then do. It just gives you the possibility to dynamically type it if you
want (which you can do in languages like C# and Java too, just pass it as object).

I mean that while it has static type checking in debug mode, it turns off and becomes dynamic type checking in production code.

Also yes you can do that in C# and Java but using generics and type inferencing variables is generally speaking a much better practice, as you keep static type checking while getting an amount of dynamicism in the code.

First, that is much more work.
Second, what happens to a user that want to run it on a platform for which you
haven't built it? It doesn't matter if your code could support it or not, it wont help
the user.

Much more work here meaning really not a lot more work at all in the modern days of build servers, continuous integration, and virtual machines.

Second if it's opensource then they can compile it from source if they really want to and it's not my problem (tm), it's the problem of the distribution's specific packagers.

if it's closed source then not only is it not my problem but it's probably against their EULA or if not there'll be a clause in there that says I'm not responsible for you trying to run it on unsupported platforms.

And what about platforms that you can't compile to even if you want, like game
consoles and smart TVs?

Smart TVs run Android, e.g. I can distribute through the Google Play Store, so not a problem.

.NET runs on the Xbox 360, (under development for) the PS3 & PS4, and if Microsoft isn't stupid will run on the XBone, It also runs on the Wii

On the handheld side the PSVita (AFAICT based on their developer site) exclusively runs .NET, and I can't tell but I'm guessing you can also run it on the 3DS

Also obviously except for the Vita I can use C/C++ for any of the consoles, and C++ is the go to language for that kind of development anyway, Application distribution is handled either via physical media or through their associated digital distribution system and so as a result multiple binaries are not a massive concern as separate builds are required anyway.

Finally consoles are typically underpowered enough (the current generation is using netbook CPU cores) that they require device specific tuning in order to approach anything close to reasonable performance with modern graphics. Which means you need multiple versions of the code anyway.

[abral]

Then why do you talk as you obviously have no data to back your statements?

I did tell I was guessing and I didn't have any data.

I however, do.

http://www.w3resource.com/browsers/java-support.php

The numbers of computers that have Java installed is in fact higher since a lot of browsers
now have started to block Java until accepted.

These statistics are gathered from viewers of w3resource.com, whose users are developers. So, they're much more likely to have Java than the average user.

Asm.JS is a subset of Javascript yes. A totally static subset that is compiled from a language
like C, but needs to be compiled again to be run on a processor natively. a.k.a. bytecode.
Your point is correct, however it still isn't Javascript. Just a Javascript compatible bytecode.

I don't understand why you call it a "bytecode". You can write it by hand, it's not so hard.
This is an example (from the specs):

function diag(x, y) {
x = +x; // x has type double
y = +y; // y has type double
return +sqrt(square(x) + square(y));
}

Indeed, quoting from the asm.js FAQs:

"Q. Why don't you specify a bytecode syntax instead of strange JavaScript idioms?
A. For compilers like Emscripten or Mandreel, the syntax of a bytecode language simply isn't that important. In fact, most bytecode and machine languages have non-human-readable binary formats. However, we may create a more human-readable surface syntax for asm.js, which could be used for convenient disassembly and human read/write-ability."

[abral]

Fact is, JS is NOT interpreted anymore, it's a JIT compiled modern language. Another fact is, I can't just install Python or Java on my iPad, Android phone, Chrome OS, Enterprise Windows at school or work. Why? The reason is not technical, it's political. The whole Mozilla is now run by JS inventor. Of course we will shove JS down our throats no matter what you think. They have been actively enforcing JS for ages. You've seen PDF.js in Firefox? I'll tell you. It's purely crap. It's slow and buggy, but they're enforcing it. You can't choose.

Actually, you can choose what PDF reader you want to use in Firefox.

[caligula]

People seems very happy with Spotify even if it doesn't look native. Or look at Android
where overly other app looks completely different.
And I I do want it too look native everywhere, I can do that. I will just have to write
platform specific code for every OS, just as I would have otherwise any way. And I can
still keep all background code the same. Mostly it is CSS that would be changed.

Spotify is a Web 2.0 app nowadays, https://play.spotify.com/
People can make it look whatever they want. The power of Web 2.0 / HTML5 / JS.

[Pajn]

The problem is that doesn't really work, you can't just scale things to a screen size without making serious compromises one way or the other. It really has to be tailored to the input type as well. While large buttons for instance are nice for fingers I don't want them to be that big when I'm using a mouse and keyboard.

And tailoring for different input types is easy as well. Right now there isn't a ready
API for asking for touch support but I can check for a platform that will probably
support touch (includes phone, mobile, tablet or touch in the User Agent) or platforms
that are nearly always touch (Android).
And no, I don't have to make any compromises at all.

You probably would also want it to look integrated with the appropriate device as opposed to looking the exact same everywhere, but then again you might not *shrugs* I know a lot of people do though

People seems very happy with Spotify even if it doesn't look native. Or look at Android
where overly other app looks completely different.
And I I do want it too look native everywhere, I can do that. I will just have to write
platform specific code for every OS, just as I would have otherwise any way. And I can
still keep all background code the same. Mostly it is CSS that would be changed.

Further I do know mono will work across all of the devices you've listed :P

I guess you mean Xamarin which does NOT run on Jolla and Ubuntu Touch for instance.
Also it requires writing platform specific code so it isn't even write once compile everywhere.

Yeah dart actually is pretty interesting I'll give you that and certainly a massive step up from javascript (not that it's a very high bar) I don't agree with it not going full in on the static typing but it's a step in the right direction and I'm hoping will go fully static in the future.

What do you mean with "not going full in on the static typing"? If you want to statically
type everything, then do. It just gives you the possibility to dynamically type it if you
want (which you can do in languages like C# and Java too, just pass it as object).

However I do not agree that the web is the only portable platform. That said portability to me (and most developers) means source portability, binary portability is simply a distribution detail which isn't that big of a concern

First, that is much more work.
Second, what happens to a user that want to run it on a platform for which you
haven't built it? It doesn't matter if your code could support it or not, it wont help
the user.

And what about platforms that you can't compile to even if you want, like game
consoles and smart TVs?

[Marc Driftmeyer]

Let me get this straight:

``All future software will be written in Javascript... With Javascript you just need a browser...etc.,''

With a Browser you have a C/C++ platform. So what myopic mind thinks an interpreted language, no matter how much you add to it, including non-interpreted capabilities thinks Operating System Vendors are turning their entire proven platforms over to a Browser? Too many I'm afraid.

Sorry, but C/C++ are expanding use, never mind ObjC exploding in use as tools of the trade.

There is no goddamn way I'm writing a Web App on iOS, or OS X, not to mention Windows or FreeBSD. GNOME training people on Javascript as some sort of gateway language drug is impotent.

In the end, C/C++/ObjC and Java [until Enterprises dump it for something else like they did to C++ in the early 00s]. FORTRAN/Matlab and others for specialized engineering/scientific work.

Python, PHP, Ruby, Lua, Perl will all be around. LISP, Prolog, whatever else will still have their niches.

Javascript will continue to be less and less prominent as more and more of its UI functionality is built-into CSS.

Once security issued are worked out in a sandbox, both WebCL and WebGL will eventually be containers for straight OpenCL and OpenGL enabled systems.

[Marc Driftmeyer]

Well obviously you need the LLVM runtime in order to do the JITing, and assuming that you have installed LLVM on those devices and you bundled all of the libraries you required into it (and that the libraries support all of these platforms) then yes in theory it will. However last I checked Android doesn't have LLVM as part of it's image and the PS4 may or may not.

That all said trying to run the same unmodified program across all of those platforms plus a desktop is stupid. You are going to at a minimum want different binaries with completely different UIs using paradigms appropriate for the platform coded into them which JS is not going to help with.

Well said.

[Luke_Wolf]

Javascript also comes with a fixed equality operator. Problem solved. Just like PHP has one.

yeah "===" because they couldn't figure out how to do equality right the first time. And PHP is certainly not a language to look up to either.

Fact is, JS is NOT interpreted anymore, it's a JIT compiled modern language.

I never said performance was the problem so meh.

Another fact is, I can't just install Python or Java on my iPad, Android phone, Chrome OS, Enterprise Windows at school or work.

If it's school or business equipment do you really believe that you should be installing arbitrary software on there in the first place? That's the IT department's job not yours.

Why? The reason is not technical, it's political. The whole Mozilla is now run by JS inventor. Of course we will shove JS down our throats no matter what you think. They have been actively enforcing JS for ages. You've seen PDF.js in Firefox? I'll tell you. It's purely crap. It's slow and buggy, but they're enforcing it. You can't choose.

And that's part of why I want to use Rekonq, or other webkit browser (I get all my nice KParts) but unfortunately I can't, and none of the mainstream browsers but firefox have tabs that really scale appropriately.

Some Linux systems have switched to dash so Bash is not a standard. I also don't know what shell my Android devices or iPad has. I doubt Bash.

The point was that everything being written in javascript is as absurd as everything being written in shell, not as a suggestion to write everything in shellscripts.

Anyways, think of the modern platforms: tablets, phones, smart TV, desktop, server, set top boxes, etc. They ALL are migrating towards a browser based interface.

Actually I don't see that at all, in fact on the tablet and phone side it's well noted that they're moving away from the browser and into platform specific applications. Facebook and youtube being easy examples, and with both Mono and Qt being cross platform to all significant platforms I'm not convinced that the future market share won't be mostly shared by those two.

Browser is the de facto standard today. It's a terrible platform in many ways, but everybody seems to like it and that's where the money is.

It's not really the defacto standard at all. C, C++, JVM, and .NET are still the basis for most applications today, and I don't see that changing any time soon. This Cloud nonsense has been going on for years now and the market has yet to really shift.

JS now has SSE and AVX and GPU acceleration.

yes because we're at the point now where people are insane enough to think that that's just what Javascript needed

People are forced to use Firefox, Chrome, IE, Opera. All other browsers will be ridiculed and forgotten. Only hardcore nerds will use them and miss the old Web 1.0. Mainstream users want something that works.

unfortunately yes, which is a sad thing not a good thing.

JS is the cool new intermediate language. It's probably worse than academic bytecode formats, but technical merits don't matter. JS will be replaced with something better in the future but now a great political force is pushing JS as intermediate format and there's nothing you can do about it.

Actually there are two things I can do about it:
1). Do what I'm doing already and not write my applications completely in Javascript
2). Help promote other people doing the same.

Last time I checked, shumway was better than gnash. The developers and people who spread media hype also like the more liberal licenses and want to differentiate from toenail eating FSF guys.

well I'm going to stick to using the adobe plugin regardless

[Luke_Wolf]

No Android doesn't have it, nor does iOS, Ubuntu Touch, jolla or anyone else.
However everyone got a browser.
No I don't want completely different UIs, I want one UI that scales to whatever screensize
it requires, that support both mouse, keyboard and touch. Doing that using modern
web technology isn't hard and doesn't require much time if done properly from start.

The problem is that doesn't really work, you can't just scale things to a screen size without making serious compromises one way or the other. It really has to be tailored to the input type as well. While large buttons for instance are nice for fingers I don't want them to be that big when I'm using a mouse and keyboard. You probably would also want it to look integrated with the appropriate device as opposed to looking the exact same everywhere, but then again you might not *shrugs* I know a lot of people do though

Further I do know mono will work across all of the devices you've listed :P

That is why Google have developed Dart.
Whatever you think of Javascript (I don't like it) the web is the only truly portable
platform and developing for it in sane languages (Dart) is a real possibility.

Yeah dart actually is pretty interesting I'll give you that and certainly a massive step up from javascript (not that it's a very high bar) I don't agree with it not going full in on the static typing but it's a step in the right direction and I'm hoping will go fully static in the future.

However I do not agree that the web is the only portable platform. That said portability to me (and most developers) means source portability, binary portability is simply a distribution detail which isn't that big of a concern