AMD Radeon Linux Gaming Performance At Parity Between KDE Plasma 6.0 X11 vs. Wayland

[Weasel]

WTH? They are the most efficient way to use displays. In fact they are so efficient that even mac os and windows try to have same features as WMs on linux.

There is just small learning curve about 1-2 weeks and you'll get used to it and it will be harder for you to revert to DEs then it was switching to WMs.

No, it's going ass backwards to MS DOS era, closer to one app per screen bullshit. The less control the user has, the worse it is.

Tiling WMs are probably half the reason Wayland is in such garbage state, it seems it's all it cares about. Disgusting beyond belief.

[oiaohm]

No, it's going ass backwards to MS DOS era, closer to one app per screen bullshit. The less control the user has, the worse it is.

Tiling WMs are probably half the reason Wayland is in such garbage state, it seems it's all it cares about. Disgusting beyond belief.

One of the reason for zoned that noted in

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/264

Context for compositors: They now know the explicit layout of windows a client has created, and that these windows belong together, so can decide to e.g. allow the user to move them as a cluster between virtual zones, or represent them as one in a tiling WM and potentially only expand them if selected

This happens not to be limited to tiled.

Weasel how do you make sure a multi application end up correctly grouped on you taskbar on windows and X11? The answer is you don't. There is context information missing to make this happen correctly all the time.

One of the problems worked out is lack of context with multi process applications to know if they are multi processes or a application that should be stacked with each other in the taskbar.

As I said you need to read 264 there are lot issues that the existing X11/Windows solutions have had that have caused Wayland development in this area to stall out. Nothing todo with security.

Yes the represent them as one in a tiling WM is basically appear as a virtual desktop like window in the tiling WM tile zone is an option. So allowing multi applications in a single tile of a tiling windows manager how is this not better Weasel.

Weasel basically spend a little more time reading the line I quoted careful and then read 264 some more. The issue here is more complex than you think.

Something tiling WM makers are really want is context information so they are really good at finding where you are lacking context information so causing users minor to major issues. So most of the time when tiling WM developer says this has lack of context turns out this is messing up something else like task manager, taskbar and so on in your non tiling desktops.

[qarium]

That was the pitch for why time and money should be invested in wayland to replace X11, hindsight is a wonderful thing, see also

https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/pull/10179

"xwayland is only legacy code"
alternatively
the reason X11 has the large and diverse userbase it has is because it has incorporated a large quantity of feedback from a large number of people with a diverse set of requirements over a very long period of time. Ditch any one of those requirements and you also ditch the users that want/need it.

no one is ditching any of these requirements it just need time and afford to reimplement it in a modern and save way.

"large quantity of feedback from a large number of people with a diverse set of requirements over a very long period of time"

yes of course wayland in this meaning has a long way to go to also collect large quantity of freedback from large number of people with diverse set of requirements over long time...

X11 had 30 years but people claim wayland only has 15 years until people throw it in the trash

[qarium]

Yes, but there are 4 advantages Wayland possibly could have:
1st. Xwayland doesn't support all things X does, so technically it might have certain performance advantages from simply having less features.
2nd. X technically always puts all graphics calls into single queue. Modern GPUs do support execution of many queues. This could improve utilization. Even if Xwayland puts stuff in one queue all stuff outside of X (like DE, etc.) could be another so potentially DE is less blocking stuff from Xwayland.
3rd. Modern GPUs have hardware accelerated scheduler. In windows known as HAGS. Now HAGS don't always improve performance, sometimes it makes it worse, but sometimes it improves quite a lot, potential area to investigate and improve performance again with.
4th. Maybe utilization of SAM (smart access memory) or known as resizable BAR ( i know it is more driver level, but modern things should be made more aware of it).
I know Xwayland's part of X won't have big performance increases - that is extremly unlikely. But Wayland's compositor probably should be more efficient at utilizing GPU comparing to X server composing. That is where that 1-2% i could expect.

and when exactly do you accept reality that in reality and practice it has the opposite effect ?

any sane person should not worry about the performance of a clear legacy only codepath.

[qarium]

Nothing is preventing someone else from taking over on x11 development. Nobody seems to want to.

he is software developer himself he can do it himself... but he will not thats the joke.

he say it loud and clear he is the kind of person who to not have any trouble for himself better wait 10 years and only then if bug-free he will use it.

[mSparks]

X11 had 30 years but people claim wayland only has 15 years until people throw it in the trash

X11 has had 30 years of massive success, forming the backbone of the tech stack and developer gui for google, amazon, facebook, LinkedIn, twitter and now every single super computer in the top500 list of supercomputers- including the latest by the microsofties.

wayland has had 15 years of promising its already better than X11 while ripping out all the features that makes X11 useful to try and be more like windows and to beat X11 for gaming.

[mrg666]

X11 has had 30 years of massive success, forming the backbone of the tech stack and developer gui for google, amazon, facebook, LinkedIn, twitter and now every single super computer in the top500 list of supercomputers- including the latest by the microsofties.

wayland has had 15 years of promising its already better than X11 while ripping out all the features that makes X11 useful to try and be more like windows and to beat X11 for gaming.

You are determined to play this broken record to perfection.

Yet those top500 computers all disable x11 for security. No admin would run X11 server on a server computer. That xterm or another x11 app you run remotely does not mean X11 server is running on the server. You are running the X11 server on your client side. You are confusing servers with a workstation/desktop where X11 miserably fails to provide modern graphics capabilities.

I guess you like x11 so much since you don't know it that much.

Keep talking ... X11 yadayadayadadyada

[qarium]

X11 has had 30 years of massive success, forming the backbone of the tech stack and developer gui for google, amazon, facebook, LinkedIn, twitter and now every single super computer in the top500 list of supercomputers- including the latest by the microsofties.

this is clearly wrong because the marketshare of X11 systems against microsoft and apple in the desktop and notebook market in all these 30 years was always less than 1%....
you have a strange definition of success x11 losing hard against microsoft systems in the market.
and x11 was also broken by design just to make sure x11 can never compete against microsoft in the desktop market.

its the same of OpenGL vs DirectX you would claim OpenGL was a massive success and in reality OpenGL did always lose hard against DirectX.

wayland has had 15 years of promising its already better than X11 while ripping out all the features that makes X11 useful to try and be more like windows and to beat X11 for gaming.

and here you have a deep misunderstanding to 30 years ago X11 had no competitor in the Unix market means they never had to compete against anyone but X11 itself.
wayland compared to this has a hard time to adobt in the market only because the people have the ability and possibility to just stay with x11...

it is always hard to establish a new standard against a old standard. x11 30 years ago did not have this problem.

[qarium]

You are determined to play this broken record to perfection.
Yet those top500 computers all disable x11 for security. No admin would run X11 server on a server computer. That xterm or another x11 app you run remotely does not mean X11 server is running on the server. You are running the X11 server on your client side. You are confusing servers with a workstation/desktop where X11 miserably fails to provide modern graphics capabilities.
I guess you like x11 so much since you don't know it that much.
Keep talking ... X11 yadayadayadadyada

you are right its like OpenGL failed against DirectX in the market and also X11 systems Failed against Windows systems in the Desktop market.

all his example how x11 was a success has nothing to do with "workstation/desktop"

"X11 miserably fails to provide modern graphics capabilities"

its pretty clear that he does not use any modern graphics capabilities.

he clearly is not valve who need all these modern graphics capabilities to sell valve steam deck consoles.

[mSparks]

this is clearly wrong because the marketshare of X11 systems against microsoft and apple in the desktop and notebook market in all these 30 years was always less than 1%....

server and server development is a completely different software stack with very different requirements than the consumer/client side software stack. And Linux owns effectively 100% of both.

linux/x11 for the serverside
android Linux/surface flinger for the clientside.

apple does have a meaningful share of the client side - some 10 or 20% of devices now, microsoft has drifted into oblivion, some 300 million barely used devices out of 10s of billions of devices used daily.

There is a microsoftie tendancy to exclude the 99.99% of devices people use on a daily basis when claiming relevance, but the truth is they lost mind share a long time ago - MS purchases of minecraft, linkedin and recently activision blizzard were prime examples of trying to buy their way back into the market.

I have nothing "against" wayland in that sense, the idea is a good one - but to succeed it needs to actually be better, and there is no evidence it passes even that basic hurdle.