Fedora 21 Will Try To Abandon Non-KMS GPU Drivers

[GreatEmerald]

Can they? I think they can't, is there any generic, vesa-like KMS driver on the kernel?

There's xf86-video-modesetting, but I think it requires another driver to provide KMS...

Because I've been refurbishing junked Windows boxes with Linux for about a decade to donate and I wouldn't even bother donating a box that has less then 1.2Gb of ram and I don't even bother with the slower Pentium4 and Athlon CPUs these days. Priority parts to find: 64-bit CPUs, ram, R300 or Nvidia Geforce 6000 series or newer discrete GPUs, mobos with a Radeon X1200 series or an Nvidia 6100 series or newer IGP, mobos with 4 ram slots are of a higher priority. You get the picture? I usually collect 5-6 dumpster dived boxes before I dig through them and the drawers of parts I have and make 1-3 boxes that would be semi useful to someone that isn't a basement dwelling nerd. To date I've donated something like 35-40 Linux boxes, I have sold and traded a bunch more though.

The boxes you describe I wouldn't even give away.

The oldest thing I keep in active duty around the house is an Athlon64 3500+ Clawhammer w/ 2Gb of ram and my old 8800GTS as the public browser/spare gaming box, since it holds up surprisingly well even with modern titles like Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Legend Of Grimrock and Dungeon Defenders even at 1920x1200 with max settings if I leave out AA and AF, the CPU even manages to handle 720p playback of H.264 and WebM. The only games that I've tried on it that seem to be a bit too heavy are Half Life2 and Team Fortress2, I know for a fact that it could never run DOTA2 though.

The only 15 year old hardware I would even consider keeping would be a dual socket 1.4Ghz Pentium3-S w/ DDR ram, such systems existed, but IIRC they where exceedingly rare as there was only one dual socket board with DDR ram and the 1.4Ghz P3-S was a very expensive chip, so getting 2 would be a rarity.

We still have one PC that is using a GeForce 2 MX400 and 384 MiB RAM (it's not DDR RAM, it's one of those RAMs that were before even that) in the company whose computers I'm maintaining. But it's running a time-frozen Windows XP that isn't connected to the network. The reason why it's still kept around is for legacy connectivity – it has an LPT port which is required for a label printer we have, and since it's running 32-bit Windows, it is also capable of running 16-bit installers for legacy applications. I even installed an USB expansion card into it (made by VIA, actually) just a week ago, since it is usually given the task of scanning documents as well. Oh, and it also has a floppy drive, which we used for embroidery purposes until last week, when I switched the system to use CompactFlash instead of floppies. Of course I wouldn't even think of running any modern Linux distribution on it and expect it to work.

[erendorn]

As Duby and Kivada point out Intellivision...you are the exception TO the exception. I would say that Duby, Kivada, I, and others who handle refurbed PC's are the beginning exception, and then you go beyond even us. We are the 1%, you're that .01% that people talk about. I work in a computer shop, we do charity work, give computers away sometimes. As much of a cheap bastard as my boss is (and dear GOD is he cheap) He still won't give anything away that has less than 1Gb of RAM because he knows its not even USEFUL in this day and age.

So you go ahead and pat yourself on the head for keeping an old computer alive... But don't get mad at us and everyone else for knowing when its time to let go and let something die.

Would such older, sub 1/2Gb RAM machines be "useful" in less developed countries, and would there be a demand there? (I don't refurbish and I don't live there so genuine question)

[Ericg]

Normally people don't use an old PC as their exclusive machine. I for one have a Duron as a spare which dual boots Windows ME for old PC games and has an install of Damn Small Linux on another partition for browsing the internet, email and watching the odd TV show streamed over the network.
While it only has 512MB of RAM, it runs very well with the old nforce drivers. Newer distros however run like molasses due to the excessive use of software rendering through generic drivers, even with lightweight UIs such as LXDE and EDE.
Why should I listen to your incoherent rants and ramblings and upgrade a system that works perfectly fine for me?

As Duby and Kivada point out Intellivision...you are the exception TO the exception. I would say that Duby, Kivada, I, and others who handle refurbed PC's are the beginning exception, and then you go beyond even us. We are the 1%, you're that .01% that people talk about. I work in a computer shop, we do charity work, give computers away sometimes. As much of a cheap bastard as my boss is (and dear GOD is he cheap) He still won't give anything away that has less than 1Gb of RAM because he knows its not even USEFUL in this day and age.

So you go ahead and pat yourself on the head for keeping an old computer alive... But don't get mad at us and everyone else for knowing when its time to let go and let something die.

[duby229]

Because I've been refurbishing junked Windows boxes with Linux for about a decade to donate and I wouldn't even bother donating a box that has less then 1.2Gb of ram and I don't even bother with the slower Pentium4 and Athlon CPUs these days. Priority parts to find: 64-bit CPUs, ram, R300 or Nvidia Geforce 6000 series or newer discrete GPUs, mobos with a Radeon X1200 series or an Nvidia 6100 series or newer IGP, mobos with 4 ram slots are of a higher priority. You get the picture? I usually collect 5-6 dumpster dived boxes before I dig through them and the drawers of parts I have and make 1-3 boxes that would be semi useful to someone that isn't a basement dwelling nerd. To date I've donated something like 35-40 Linux boxes, I have sold and traded a bunch more though.

The boxes you describe I wouldn't even give away.

The oldest thing I keep in active duty around the house is an Athlon64 3500+ Clawhammer w/ 2Gb of ram and my old 8800GTS as the public browser/spare gaming box, since it holds up surprisingly well even with modern titles like Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Legend Of Grimrock and Dungeon Defenders even at 1920x1200 with max settings if I leave out AA and AF, the CPU even manages to handle 720p playback of H.264 and WebM. The only games that I've tried on it that seem to be a bit too heavy are Half Life2 and Team Fortress2, I know for a fact that it could never run DOTA2 though.

The only 15 year old hardware I would even consider keeping would be a dual socket 1.4Ghz Pentium3-S w/ DDR ram, such systems existed, but IIRC they where exceedingly rare as there was only one dual socket board with DDR ram and the 1.4Ghz P3-S was a very expensive chip, so getting 2 would be a rarity.

completely off topic, but AF is almost free, you can leave it on 16x with almost no difference. if you don't believe me then run some benches and see it for yourself.

I refurbish PCs too. I go a bit older than you, but not much. But I spend most of my time refurbing laptops. Cool thing about refurbing laptops is, even if you can't make a useable system out of it you can still piece it out on ebay, even right down to the screw sets.

[Kivada]

Normally people don't use an old PC as their exclusive machine. I for one have a Duron as a spare which dual boots Windows ME for old PC games and has an install of Damn Small Linux on another partition for browsing the internet, email and watching the odd TV show streamed over the network.
While it only has 512MB of RAM, it runs very well with the old nforce drivers. Newer distros however run like molasses due to the excessive use of software rendering through generic drivers, even with lightweight UIs such as LXDE and EDE.
Why should I listen to your incoherent rants and ramblings and upgrade a system that works perfectly fine for me?

Because I've been refurbishing junked Windows boxes with Linux for about a decade to donate and I wouldn't even bother donating a box that has less then 1.2Gb of ram and I don't even bother with the slower Pentium4 and Athlon CPUs these days. Priority parts to find: 64-bit CPUs, ram, R300 or Nvidia Geforce 6000 series or newer discrete GPUs, mobos with a Radeon X1200 series or an Nvidia 6100 series or newer IGP, mobos with 4 ram slots are of a higher priority. You get the picture? I usually collect 5-6 dumpster dived boxes before I dig through them and the drawers of parts I have and make 1-3 boxes that would be semi useful to someone that isn't a basement dwelling nerd. To date I've donated something like 35-40 Linux boxes, I have sold and traded a bunch more though.

The boxes you describe I wouldn't even give away.

The oldest thing I keep in active duty around the house is an Athlon64 3500+ Clawhammer w/ 2Gb of ram and my old 8800GTS as the public browser/spare gaming box, since it holds up surprisingly well even with modern titles like Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Legend Of Grimrock and Dungeon Defenders even at 1920x1200 with max settings if I leave out AA and AF, the CPU even manages to handle 720p playback of H.264 and WebM. The only games that I've tried on it that seem to be a bit too heavy are Half Life2 and Team Fortress2, I know for a fact that it could never run DOTA2 though.

The only 15 year old hardware I would even consider keeping would be a dual socket 1.4Ghz Pentium3-S w/ DDR ram, such systems existed, but IIRC they where exceedingly rare as there was only one dual socket board with DDR ram and the 1.4Ghz P3-S was a very expensive chip, so getting 2 would be a rarity.

[Ericg]

Can they? I think they can't, is there any generic, vesa-like KMS driver on the kernel?

Vesa-KMS is being worked on. I think I posted the link to it on the first page.

[intellivision]

And if you want to watch a video? I'm not seeing that Netsurf will allow you to download the 340p or lower res videos off of sites, sure theres Youtube-dl, but that only works there and last I checked it doesn't give you the options and versatility that Flashgot and DownloadThemAll do in Firefox. Nor does it appear to have ad blocking so that when a site loads 700 .gif ads it doesn't eat all of your aforementioned 256Mb of ram.

Wonderful, ancient equipment that had no upgrade path, fast forward to today, where if you are running Linux on a 15 year old Pentium3 you can just move your /home to a new box that is throughly modern, can run the same software that you are already used to, just at lightning speed by comparison and will last you another 15 years.

Clearly you didn't live in the same area that I did, here the students stole or vandalized every piece of equipment, no matter how new or old it was, the school had gear ranging from Apple IIe's and 286 boxes all the way up to indigo iMacs. There where instances of students throwing magnets inside of VCRs or putting them on CRT monitors, gum in the ports and drives, mouse balls stolen and in one instance taking frames from a porno that was on actual film and taped them on the lens of several of the schools light table projectors. There where even a few students that learned how to reprogram the cost per soda on the newer vending machines down to $0.01.


The school put in security cameras which where torn off of the wall or spray painted over as soon as they where fixed.

And no, the area wasn't high crime, the students where just destructive.

Normally people don't use an old PC as their exclusive machine. I for one have a Duron as a spare which dual boots Windows ME for old PC games and has an install of Damn Small Linux on another partition for browsing the internet, email and watching the odd TV show streamed over the network.
While it only has 512MB of RAM, it runs very well with the old nforce drivers. Newer distros however run like molasses due to the excessive use of software rendering through generic drivers, even with lightweight UIs such as LXDE and EDE.
Why should I listen to your incoherent rants and ramblings and upgrade a system that works perfectly fine for me?

[mrugiero]

why UMS for vesa? can they run off KMS too. im saying this because Wayland needs KMS.

Can they? I think they can't, is there any generic, vesa-like KMS driver on the kernel?

In few words , Fedora is trying to be buggy as possible

On the contrary. Having more unmaintained code (drivers) means more bugs, and better yet, bugs that nobody is willing to fix, because they are unmaintained. VESA, while being generic, should work for everyone as long as it's maintained. Not optimal, but not as buggy as something unmaintained.

[Kivada]

Netsurf works fine on low-end devices, thank you.
Of course the user can compare electricity costs and cost of replacement with something more modern, and may possibly reach the conclusion that buying new hardware is better. But at least the decision is left to the user and he is not forced to abandon his old hardware.

If electricity bills and IT equipment are paid from different budgets (which is the case in many schools), organizations are even interested in prolonging life of computers beyond where it would make sense if both came from the same budget. Back in the day, I helped a school run DOSVNC on 386s with 4 MB RAM and NE2000 ISA cards as cheap Internet terminals. Bonus, they could be left unsupervised and needed no theft deterrent.

And if you want to watch a video? I'm not seeing that Netsurf will allow you to download the 340p or lower res videos off of sites, sure theres Youtube-dl, but that only works there and last I checked it doesn't give you the options and versatility that Flashgot and DownloadThemAll do in Firefox. Nor does it appear to have ad blocking so that when a site loads 700 .gif ads it doesn't eat all of your aforementioned 256Mb of ram.

Wonderful, ancient equipment that had no upgrade path, fast forward to today, where if you are running Linux on a 15 year old Pentium3 you can just move your /home to a new box that is throughly modern, can run the same software that you are already used to, just at lightning speed by comparison and will last you another 15 years.

Clearly you didn't live in the same area that I did, here the students stole or vandalized every piece of equipment, no matter how new or old it was, the school had gear ranging from Apple IIe's and 286 boxes all the way up to indigo iMacs. There where instances of students throwing magnets inside of VCRs or putting them on CRT monitors, gum in the ports and drives, mouse balls stolen and in one instance taking frames from a porno that was on actual film and taped them on the lens of several of the schools light table projectors. There where even a few students that learned how to reprogram the cost per soda on the newer vending machines down to $0.01.


The school put in security cameras which where torn off of the wall or spray painted over as soon as they where fixed.

And no, the area wasn't high crime, the students where just destructive.

[agd5f]

There are only limited resources. Those resources can either be spent making the total experience better for everyone use GPUs that are 10 years old or newer, or they can be spent maintaining support for 10-20 year old cards so someone can still _TRY_ (no one knows if all of these old drivers actually still work) and run unaccelerated X on an old PC. I'm not even sure a modern distro kernel will even boot on older 486/pentium/ppro/etc. CPUs.