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FreeBSD 10 To Use Clang Compiler, Deprecate GCC

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  • kraftman
    replied
    Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
    Sorry, but GPL-licensed projects are driven by money too (for example : http://lwn.net/Articles/395961/) ... the manpower difference between a full-time programmer and a hobbist is BIG and you see that when decisions are made
    Apples to oranges. Linux developers are being payed and he was talking about sponsors that seems to be deciding what's good for BSD.

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  • kraftman
    replied
    Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
    Lets just forget for the second that X11 already has far, far more features than Wayland. Computers are getting faster all the time, if feature bloat is a problem, it shouldn't be now. I am sick of people that keep trying to reinvent the wheel. WHY?!? Yeah, X11 is old, but it works. The time can be better put into far more useful things. Just my opinion.
    Sadly, X11 is old and can't compete with Windows and OS X solutions. Wayland is big step forward unlike Clang/llvm which is big step backward for now.

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  • vertexSymphony
    replied
    Well what all that tells me? I used to like FreeBSD but I see more and more value in the GPL. Pretty obviously being forced to choices by sponsors, aka by money, isn't really my vision of open source (yeah they're allowed to have that vision, but I find the free software one much more attractive).
    Sorry, but GPL-licensed projects are driven by money too (for example : http://lwn.net/Articles/395961/) ... the manpower difference between a full-time programmer and a hobbist is BIG and you see that when decisions are made

    Leave a comment:


  • LinuxID10T
    replied
    Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    Not unless I employ optimizations not available in Clang/LLVM, like profile guided optimization or openmp in which case yes GCC often runs circles around Clang/LLVM but it's a bit 'unfair' as these are rather 'exotic' optimizations not always in use and also that they will eventually make their way into Clang/LLVM.
    See, the thing is that Clang will pretty much always be years behind in performance. Is anybody drawing parallels between this and the open source graphics vs propriety graphics situation? LMFAO

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  • balouba
    replied
    So if I understand the BSD guys in this forum correctly:

    - FreeBSD uses GCC 4 because of *license issues* with newer version (namely their *sponsors* don't want then to use GPL3)
    - FreeBSD will use LLVM/Clang since they don't want to use GCC > 4
    - FreeBSD does not switch compiler for license reasons <= write black, then say white, that doesn't work
    - LLVM/Clang are only 5-15% (15% is quite a bit btw) slower than GCC *if* you don't use GCC optimization cuz it's unfair if you do. I mean why in hell wouldn't you use GCC optimizations for your code? that doesn't make any sense

    Well what all that tells me? I used to like FreeBSD but I see more and more value in the GPL. Pretty obviously being forced to choices by sponsors, aka by money, isn't really my vision of open source (yeah they're allowed to have that vision, but I find the free software one much more attractive).

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  • XorEaxEax
    replied
    Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
    It is far slower than that in most cases. 5-15% my ass.
    Not unless I employ optimizations not available in Clang/LLVM, like profile guided optimization or openmp in which case yes GCC often runs circles around Clang/LLVM but it's a bit 'unfair' as these are rather 'exotic' optimizations not always in use and also that they will eventually make their way into Clang/LLVM.

    Leave a comment:


  • vertexSymphony
    replied
    Code compiled with Clang is still slower than fuck, WHY DO WE NOT WANT GCC AGAIN? God, this is like Wayland replacing X11. Lets just replace something that works better with a newer crappier version just because it is new!
    Basically because they're stuck with GCC 4.2 because of the change of licensing (they were fine with GPLv2, but GPLv3 added some new stuff that *investors* and some other people didn't like) ... so the toolchain was rotting more and more as time passed, thankfully clang appeared (devs were looking at other options) to the rescue and not only that, it also caugh a lot of interesting stuff at the code !! that with libcxxrt and libc++ made an interesting case for the c++11 stack

    Run a bench of GCC 4.2 against LLVM/Clang 3.1 ... that if we ignore features. IMHO you're really honoring your nickname

    In FreeBSD's case, I think the reason they want Clang/LLVM is because they're license purists. Yes, they seriously would rather take a compiler producing shit for code output (very large and very slow binaries) over a GPLed compiler.
    A "purely bsd licensed system" is a more coherent licensing for the rest of the system and project's philosophy IMHO ... but that's mostly "a plus" for the devs.
    for the code speed and size, can you provide proper tests to show those grossly big numbers?

    This is a demonstration that the FSF isn't the only organization that are license purists. It's telling that the BSD camp always attacks the FSF camp for being GPL license purists, yet when it comes down to deciding which compiler to include in the leading BSD operating system, they base their decision not on technical issues but on license issues. Idealists will never change...
    Are you subscribed to freebsd-hackers, freebsd-current and the new freebsd-toolchain? (and some others I can't remember now) obviously, reading all the related discussions ... because what you said is a really cute story.
    Last edited by vertexSymphony; 13 May 2012, 01:01 AM.

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  • LinuxID10T
    replied
    Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    Licence purists, sure. But really even though Clang/LLVM produces less performant code (~5-15%) it's certainly anything but a 'shit' compiler.

    However since FreeBSD would not ship any GPLv3 licenced code (due to their corporate sponsors/customers iirc) they were stuck on GCC 4.2 which is like what, 5 years old now? So it's not surprising that the second that Clang/LLVM showed up they decided to switch, not only is it a better compiler than the ~5 year old GCC 4.2 they are stuck with, it also in line with their licence ideology. The transition has taken quite some time due to Clang/LLVM's lack of maturity but it will eventually happen in full. I see this as a good thing, I think the BSD's having to rely on GPL licenced code all these years (particularly in such an important area as the compiler toolchain) has been a sore point for the BSD advocates and has helped fuel further friction, and we could use LESS of that.

    However the 'Clang is quickly replacing GCC' line... 'quickly'? He even states later in the 'article' that the switch has been ongoing since 2009 !
    It is far slower than that in most cases. 5-15% my ass.

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  • XorEaxEax
    replied
    Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
    In FreeBSD's case, I think the reason they want Clang/LLVM is because they're license purists. Yes, they seriously would rather take a compiler producing shit for code output (very large and very slow binaries) over a GPLed compiler.
    Licence purists, sure. But really even though Clang/LLVM produces less performant code (~5-15%) it's certainly anything but a 'shit' compiler.

    However since FreeBSD would not ship any GPLv3 licenced code (due to their corporate sponsors/customers iirc) they were stuck on GCC 4.2 which is like what, 5 years old now? So it's not surprising that the second that Clang/LLVM showed up they decided to switch, not only is it a better compiler than the ~5 year old GCC 4.2 they are stuck with, it also in line with their licence ideology. The transition has taken quite some time due to Clang/LLVM's lack of maturity but it will eventually happen in full. I see this as a good thing, I think the BSD's having to rely on GPL licenced code all these years (particularly in such an important area as the compiler toolchain) has been a sore point for the BSD advocates and has helped fuel further friction, and we could use LESS of that.

    However the 'Clang is quickly replacing GCC' line... 'quickly'? He even states later in the 'article' that the switch has been ongoing since 2009 !

    Leave a comment:


  • LinuxID10T
    replied
    Originally posted by garegin View Post
    x11 works better, you are kidding right? that's why most x.org devs support or even actively work on wayland. including x11 veteran keith packard.
    Lets just forget for the second that X11 already has far, far more features than Wayland. Computers are getting faster all the time, if feature bloat is a problem, it shouldn't be now. I am sick of people that keep trying to reinvent the wheel. WHY?!? Yeah, X11 is old, but it works. The time can be better put into far more useful things. Just my opinion.

    Leave a comment:

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