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Oh, Kebbabert, it's funny SUN used such jerks to spread FUD about its competitors. SUN was a FUD company, but they're no more. Now, you're an alone FUDder, sorry gunman.
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Originally posted by kebabbert View PostSolaris completes all threads slow (not very slow)". But when we ramp up difficulty and many cores, then Solaris continues to work slowly but steadily. Linux chokes and can not scale as well. Some threads take very long time, others finish quickly.
In short, I dont claim that Solaris code is bug free. I dont think that Linux developers are bad, I believe they write good code. The problem is Linux develeopment model where he deletes code for new code all the time: "Linux evolves like in biology, it gets slowly better for each generation". This means that source code are always new and buggy. It takes long time to get mature bug free code. This is the reason Linux has lots of problems. With for instance, scalability.
In a few years, Oracle will release a SPARC machine with 16.384 threads and 64TB RAM. Each thread is treated almost like a cpu. This means Solaris runs a 16.000 cpu machine. On one single server. That is good scalability.
Linux on the other hand, scales very well horizontally (in a network, such as Google having 10.000 PCs on a network and runs Linux kernel, or super computers doing calculations).
But vertically, Linux scales very bad. Linux has problems using many cpus on one single machine. I linked to a article where three Linux scalability experts from RedHat, etc - dispelled the FUD from Unix vendors that Linux scales bad. The scalability experts said "Linux scales super, for instance Google has 10.000 computers with Linux. Linux true strength is in horizontal scalability (large network). But also vertically Linux scales good (on one single computer). For instance in this v2.4 Linux uses 4 cores without problems, and in next v2.6 Linux will use 16 cores! Now, that is goooood scalability!". You see that they think that 16 cores in one single computer is good scalability - whereas all Unix vendors considers that very bad scalability. (But no one denies Linux scales good horizontally). Here is the article:
http://searchenterpriselinux.techtar...ux-scalability
And I saw talk about SGI having a computer with 1024 cpus that Linux runs on. That computer is quite special, it behaves like PCs on a network, it is not a single computer. It has something like 128 nodes, and all benchmarks always are using 128 instances of the work load, one for each node. Basically, it is just a cluster, some PCs on a fast switch. Here is more technical information on the SGI computer:
If you dont understand what he is talking about, it is ok. But try, and you will see why all SGI benchmarks always are parallell tasks that would equally be good in a cluster with 1024 cpus. This is not a vertical scaling machine.
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Originally posted by kraftman View PostI consider Linus is very credible.
If Linus T wrote here "sorry, I have read this thread and unfortunately Kebabbert is correct. Linux scales good horizontally but not so good vertically, but we are working on it" I promise you that Kraftman and all other Linux fan boys would not believe that. When earlier Linus T, Andrew Morton, etc - all said bad things about Linux then the Linux fanboys rejected everything what they said. I showed such negative links from several different Linux developers, and they were all rejected by you.
Therefore, I can not prove anything to you, Kraftman. When even Linus T says something bad about Linux, you reject it. If I where to bring Linus T with me, and we knocked on your door and Linus T explained to you that I was correct - you would not believe me. There is NO WAY I can make you accept any links I provide. Not even from Linus T or Andrew Morton.
Therefore, this debate is over with you, Kraftman. Even when I am correct you reject it. You have showed this time and time again. I have posted several research papers - and you STILL deny I post any research papers - you say I lie, that I never posted any papers at all.
I get a strange feeling:
-Look, it is raining
-No.
-You are wet, you just wiped rain from your face
-No, I didnt
-Yes you did! I saw it! You ARE wet.
-No I am not.
...
Kraftman, you are not serious. I am not going to waste more time on you. You have confessed you FUD. I have showed you lie about me. I dont see why I should debate with someone who FUDs and lies? You are not serious, you are just Trolling.
Good bye. Now I have to deal with the smitty3283 person who also I have quoted when he lies.
But I work and there are lots of posts here, so I will handle posts slowly, on a FIFO basis. I will select some serious posts to answer to. Pure Trollisms and Lies will be ignored. I can not waste too much time on you linux fanboys that confessed you FUD and confessed you make up things, and I have proved you lie.
I will post later. But not to you, Kraftman. You had your time to say something and I listened patiently to you to see if you had something interesting to say, but you didnt care and instead called me names: "idiot", "moron", "troll", etc. Actually, that is not an ok thing to do to people, Kraftman. It is not ok behaviour.
But of course, if you have something serious to say, I will continue debating with you. But please, be serious then.
Stay tuned, the rest of you.
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Regarding bad code in Solaris.
A) Here is a Linux developer that says that Solaris code is bad. He seems to know what he is talking about, so I suspect he is true. I think the link is credible, and his criticism is valid. (The thread is ~15 years old).
B) Also, Kraftman actually posted a link showing that Solaris had a problem with... forking(?) processes? The solaris user said he could see processes being forked - which indicates something is strange because forking is normally too quick to see text output. The Solaris developer says something like "we have not focused on unimportant things, we have focused on the big picture in Solaris" - so he confesses that Linux may be faster on certain things. I dont doubt that. Many people say that Linux is fast on single threaded things. One guy said something like "Linux completes some threads very fast, and others very slow. Solaris completes all threads slow (not very slow)". But when we ramp up difficulty and many cores, then Solaris continues to work slowly but steadily. Linux chokes and can not scale as well. Some threads take very long time, others finish quickly.
In short, I dont claim that Solaris code is bug free. I dont think that Linux developers are bad, I believe they write good code. The problem is Linux develeopment model where he deletes code for new code all the time: "Linux evolves like in biology, it gets slowly better for each generation". This means that source code are always new and buggy. It takes long time to get mature bug free code. This is the reason Linux has lots of problems. With for instance, scalability.
In a few years, Oracle will release a SPARC machine with 16.384 threads and 64TB RAM. Each thread is treated almost like a cpu. This means Solaris runs a 16.000 cpu machine. On one single server. That is good scalability.
Linux on the other hand, scales very well horizontally (in a network, such as Google having 10.000 PCs on a network and runs Linux kernel, or super computers doing calculations).
But vertically, Linux scales very bad. Linux has problems using many cpus on one single machine. I linked to a article where three Linux scalability experts from RedHat, etc - dispelled the FUD from Unix vendors that Linux scales bad. The scalability experts said "Linux scales super, for instance Google has 10.000 computers with Linux. Linux true strength is in horizontal scalability (large network). But also vertically Linux scales good (on one single computer). For instance in this v2.4 Linux uses 4 cores without problems, and in next v2.6 Linux will use 16 cores! Now, that is goooood scalability!". You see that they think that 16 cores in one single computer is good scalability - whereas all Unix vendors considers that very bad scalability. (But no one denies Linux scales good horizontally). Here is the article:
And I saw talk about SGI having a computer with 1024 cpus that Linux runs on. That computer is quite special, it behaves like PCs on a network, it is not a single computer. It has something like 128 nodes, and all benchmarks always are using 128 instances of the work load, one for each node. Basically, it is just a cluster, some PCs on a fast switch. Here is more technical information on the SGI computer:
If you dont understand what he is talking about, it is ok. But try, and you will see why all SGI benchmarks always are parallell tasks that would equally be good in a cluster with 1024 cpus. This is not a vertical scaling machine.
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Stupid time limit:
"Why shouldn't I consider Linus isn't credible?"
I consider Linus is very credible.
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Originally posted by kebabbert View PostAgain, it is about credibility. I have told you, if you want to show something bad about Solaris, then you have to give credible links, such as research papers, Solaris developers, etc and other credible links. You can not give links to Solaris competitors - that is simply not credible. That is the reason I quote Linus when I want to show something negative about Linux. Or when I quote Linux scaling experts, when I want to show how bad Linux scales. I would avoid quoting Solaris experts, that is simply not credible when we talk about Linux crappy code.
So, when you quote Linus Torvalds, who said "But I am in active competition with Sun, so I hope Solaris dies" - do you really think that is credible when he says "Linux has better code than Solaris"?
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Originally posted by smitty3268 View PostAh, kebabbert - are you even reading the links posted? That test showed that ZFS was faster than BTRFS, once you added in enough disks, but that with a few tweaks and a newer kernel BTRFS was quickly catching up.
As for performance, I dont really care. I do suspect that BTRFS gets faster than ZFS when it is done. As a research paper explained: to get data safety you need to trade cpu performance and do lots of calculations on checksums. That is one of the reasons ext3 are faster than ZFS - they dont do as many checksum calculations as ZFS. That is also one of the reasons ZFS is much safer. I dont care about speed. If BTRFS is faster - congratulations.
Originally posted by smitty3268 View PostAlso, how many disks are required to be in a machine before it counts as "enterprise" in your mind? 16 high-end SSDs sounds like quite a bit to me, they probably have the capabilities of 3 times that many traditional HDDs. More than that is quickly becoming very, very, specialized and marginal market.
Originally posted by smitty3268 View PostBecause they don't need one?
Sun was the sole developer of ZFS, so they had to devote large amounts of resources to it's development. BTRFS @ Oracle was a completely different situation. Oracle took the lead in developing it, but they were also able to draw upon resources from Red Hat, IBM, and many other places throughout the community, making a larger in-house team by Oracle unnecessary.
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Originally posted by kebabbert View PostI am only asking, "if Oracle is serious with BTRFS, why dont they assign a large team in-house at Oracle"?
Sun was the sole developer of ZFS, so they had to devote large amounts of resources to it's development. BTRFS @ Oracle was a completely different situation. Oracle took the lead in developing it, but they were also able to draw upon resources from Red Hat, IBM, and many other places throughout the community, making a larger in-house team by Oracle unnecessary.
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Originally posted by kebabbert View PostOk, so what are you trying to prove here? That ZFS is slower? Ok, it may be slower, according to this test. It is not really important to me, who is fastest.
And also, your post uses only 16 drives. That is nothing when we talk about Enterprise storage halls. You dont see such tiny machines in Enterprise halls. ZFS is for Enterprise halls, with many discs. Then it excels. It may be slow on desktop. That is ok with me. I dont mind if ZFS is slow on desktop, as long as my data are safe.
Also, how many disks are required to be in a machine before it counts as "enterprise" in your mind? 16 high-end SSDs sounds like quite a bit to me, they probably have the capabilities of 3 times that many traditional HDDs. More than that is quickly becoming very, very, specialized and marginal market.
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