GNOME's Mutter Lands DRM Sync Obj v1 Support For Explicit Sync On Wayland

[Vermilion]

It's whataboutism.

That was your whataboutism I'm quoting.. Also why is whataboutism only fine when you use it.

How the hell don't we have enough resources to maintain the single Xorg server, and suddenly we have enough resources to maintain basically 15 similar applications? How?

Because what you always seem to dismiss, is that Xorg's issue was in its architecture. After decades it became a maintenance nightmare that its own developers gave up on it, coming up with a new design based on protocols and extentions similar to Vulkan. Surely they're not stupid to increase their own workloads.

Wayland doesn't dictate there should be N number of implementations. Some projects wanted to work on their own, their choice. Others consolidated efforts to deduplicate work in the form of wlroots, their choice as well. Why should we mandate that everyone uses the same implementation?

[QwertyChouskie]

I sure hope support for explicit sync will be backported to current versions of kwin and mutter - meaning gnome 46 and kde 6.0 subsequential releases, as well as to xwayland.

My understanding is that it should be in mutter 46.1.

[avis]

That was your whataboutism I'm quoting.. Also why is whataboutism only fine when you use it.

Lost you there.

Because what you always seem to dismiss, is that Xorg's issue was in its architecture. After decades it became a maintenance nightmare that its own developers gave up on it, coming up with a new design based on protocols and extentions similar to Vulkan. Surely they're not stupid to increase their own workloads.

I don't care what Xorg was or wasn't. It was the same for all its users. It worked and it's still working for me near perfectly and does so much better than Wayland which doesn't work for me at all since XFCE doesn't support it yet and it's not clear when it does. And fractional scaling in Wayland sucks ass vs. DPI scaling in Xorg. Even on Gnome/KDE which supposedly feature the best/most complete Wayland implementations to date.

Wayland doesn't dictate there should be N number of implementations. Some projects wanted to work on their own, their choice. Others consolidated efforts to deduplicate work in the form of wlroots, their choice as well. Why should we mandate that everyone uses the same implementation?

"Wayland doesn't dictate" yet we have 15+ implementations. Yet another excellent whataboutism.

There's been 0 effort to deduplicate anything and I don't even think it's possible or plausible. KWin is C++, Mutter is C, I've heard some compositor is written in Rust. You're making stuff up.

[F.Ultra]

Lost you there.



I don't care what Xorg was or wasn't. It was the same for all its users. It worked and it's still working for me near perfectly and does so much better than Wayland which doesn't work for me at all since XFCE doesn't support it yet and it's not clear when it does. And fractional scaling in Wayland sucks ass vs. DPI scaling in Xorg. Even on Gnome/KDE which supposedly feature the best/most complete Wayland implementations to date.



"Wayland doesn't dictate" yet we have 15+ implementations. Yet another excellent whataboutism.

There's been 0 effort to deduplicate anything and I don't even think it's possible or plausible. KWin is C++, Mutter is C, I've heard some compositor is written in Rust. You're making stuff up.

What language the compositor is written in have zero to do with anything here, what matters is how qt,gtk and so on communicates with a compositor and they sure as hell doesn't do it by statically linking in the compositor.

That there exists 15+ implementations is not due to any dictation from Wayland, it just means that 15+ people/organizations decided to give it a go to try and write their own. They could just as well have done the same for X11, but no one was as crazy as going down that route. Similarly with Wayland there is nothing that is stopping e.g KDE, XFCE and so on from using Mutter (or vice versa) but they don't want to do that, they want to have the freedom to dictate how the compositor works and functions so they build their own.

Pipewire is 100% API compatible with Pulseaudio because the Pulseaudio API was not a problem. Pipewire is however not compatible with aRts or ESD and that would be the more proper comparison.

[avis]

What language the compositor is written in have zero to do with anything here, what matters is how qt,gtk and so on communicates with a compositor and they sure as hell doesn't do it by statically linking in the compositor.

That there exists 15+ implementations is not due to any dictation from Wayland, it just means that 15+ people/organizations decided to give it a go to try and write their own. They could just as well have done the same for X11, but no one was as crazy as going down that route. Similarly with Wayland there is nothing that is stopping e.g KDE, XFCE and so on from using Mutter (or vice versa) but they don't want to do that, they want to have the freedom to dictate how the compositor works and functions so they build their own.

Pipewire is 100% API compatible with Pulseaudio because the Pulseaudio API was not a problem. Pipewire is however not compatible with aRts or ESD and that would be the more proper comparison.

Your comment does not address:

• A much more massive duplication of effort than Xorg ever had. A lot more resources needed to develop 15+ implementations as well.
• A massive difference in terms of features and completeness in Wayland implementations.
• A need for a display server for each DE/WM since Wayland doesn't provide a reference implementation (Weston is a joke).

Enjoy your Gnome/KDE 'cause most other Wayland users are wrecked.

Gnome has barely managed to implement this protocol with all their corporate backing, let's see how many years if ever it'll take to get it for all other compositors. Again, peanuts for you. Where's your feature complete Wayland compositor, BTW? Or maybe you've helped create one? Ah, you've got none. Expertly opining about something you've got no clue about.

I'm not against Wayland. I hate how it's being implemented.

[Vermilion]

Yet another excellent whataboutism.

Ah I see the issue now. You don't understand what whataboutism is.

It worked and it's still working for me near perfectly and does so much better than Wayland which doesn't work for me at all

If it works so perfectly for you then good, why are you putting so much effort into refuting wayland in every wayland thread, when people that actually do use and develop Wayland tell you they don't share your concerns. What's the end goal here?

There's been 0 effort to deduplicate anything and I don't even think it's possible or plausible. KWin is C++, Mutter is C, I've heard some compositor is written in Rust. You're making stuff up.

Uh, look, I really hate dissing the other party in discussions, but there is a major reading comprehension issue on your end. That, or disingenuity. I clearly stated that wlroots is the project to deduplicate efforts surrounding wayland compositors. That's the stated project's goal, what stuff am I making up?:

[...] Others consolidated efforts to deduplicate work in the form of wlroots

Why bring up kwin and mutter differences, they never said they want to use wlroots too. Meanwhile many wlroots-based compositors do. That, my friend, is a textbook example of whataboutism.

Actually nevermind, this discussion is going nowhere and I lost interest.

[avis]

Ah I see the issue now. You don't understand what whataboutism is.



If it works so perfectly for you then good, why are you putting so much effort into refuting wayland in every wayland thread, when people that actually do use and develop Wayland tell you they don't share your concerns. What's the end goal here?



Uh, look, I really hate dissing the other party in discussions, but there is a major reading comprehension issue on your end. That, or disingenuity. I clearly stated that wlroots is the project to deduplicate efforts surrounding wayland compositors. That's the stated project's goal, what stuff am I making up?:

Why bring up kwin and mutter differences, they never said they want to use wlroots too. Meanwhile many wlroots-based compositors do. That, my friend, is a textbook example of whataboutism.

Actually nevermind, this discussion is going nowhere and I lost interest.

1. I've not refuted Wayland, only its woeful implementations, terrible fragmentation and duplication of efforts.
2. wlroots is not used by either Mutter and Kwin and it doesn't/cannot solve fragmentation because a Wayland display server requires a lot more than that.

Yeah, it's fine that you've lost interest because not a single Wayland deficiency that I've mentioned over the years has been addressed. At least now we have piss poor fractional scaling which wasn't there a few years ago. But it's never been my major concern, a pet peeve maybe.

[F.Ultra]

Your comment does not address:

• A much more massive duplication of effort than Xorg ever had. A lot more resources needed to develop 15+ implementations as well.
• A massive difference in terms of features and completeness in Wayland implementations.
• A need for a display server for each DE/WM since Wayland doesn't provide a reference implementation (Weston is a joke).

Enjoy your Gnome/KDE 'cause most other Wayland users are wrecked.

Gnome has barely managed to implement this protocol with all their corporate backing, let's see how many years if ever it'll take to get it for all other compositors. Again, peanuts for you. Where's your feature complete Wayland compositor, BTW? Or maybe you've helped create one? Ah, you've got none. Expertly opining about something you've got no clue about.

I'm not against Wayland. I hate how it's being implemented.

yes it addressed that exactly, not my problem that you decided to play the strawman game.

[avis]

yes it addressed that exactly, not my problem that you decided to play the strawman game.

I've not noticed anything, saw basically an empty comment. Prolly I'm stupid. You've won. Have a nice day.

[smitty3268]

No other popular widespread OS that I know of, has this choice.

No other popular widespread OS allows you to choose the DE you want to use. If you argue that linux should copy those, then you are arguing for forcing everyone to use GNOME. That's certainly one way to reduce fragmentation and ensure everyone is using the same stuff. Good luck getting linux users to agree to it though.

Gnome's Mutter has debated for years about the feature we're now discussing, do you really believe all other Wayland implementations will add it soon? Really?

I'd be pretty surprised if they all don't have support within a few months. This is pretty much a required feature for making sure things work well for nvidia users, so it's going to be pretty high priority for everyone. And as you mentioned, this has been hanging around for years already. Everyone already has patches to support it, they just need to be merged. Someone already pointed out the wlroots one. KDE already has one too, they just need to click the merge button after getting final approval for it. Everyone has only been holding off waiting for the spec to finalize upstream first.