X11 Server Development Pace Hits A Two Decade Low

[sinepgib]

Now some people does modernize Wayland, propose protocol changes, like KDE people wanted to allow tearing (recently allowed), Nvidia, Sway, Collabora, AMD wants explicit sync but they are blocked on UMF discussions since like forever. Those things take too long.

The perils of working in open ecosystems, you need to reach agreements rather than dictating like Microsoft or Apple can allow themselves to. This means everything moves more slowly.

[Monsterovich]

X11 had many specific protocol extensions, you can not even have hardware rendered OpenGL on X11 without the dri glx extension.

You sound like it's something bad. The fact that Xorg can be used without the GPU is a huge advantage.

Every desktop has its own X11 Compositor, lots of duplicated efforts as you say.

In Xorg, the compositor is just a small component that draws effects and transparency. You can replace this component or throw it away completely. In Wayland, the compositor is a mega-bloated super application, with a bunch of stuff put into it, including features that are not present in the main Wayland server. Calling it a compositor in Wayland terminology is wrong, it is a separate graphical server+DE, incompatible with the others.

Wrong: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe

Can it do ssh -X?

X11/Xorg has no concept of sync or screen refresh rate by default

Well, that's not true at all.

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/node/1364743

In addition, VSync can be done by the compositor.

This is a feature, as most Xorg fanboys seeing every client being able to read your full input and output whenever they want as a feature. Parity on replicating X11s issues is not a goal.

Another security-nerd. If Xorg needed security, people would have done it a long time ago. Wayland, on the other hand, is building a secure gulag.

By the way: https://github.com/Aishou/wayland-keylogger

A specific consequence of how the Gnome implemented the compositor, not a protocol issue. Case closed.

And how many of these "specific consequences" will there be in Wayland. Shall I tell you?

[caligula]

X11 with X.org is also having problem of getting new developers.

The old classic problem how fund the development to have enough developers to get stuff done quickly.

Most developers do JS/web these days. Does not make sense invest your intellectual capacity on obsolete native desktops when everyone is doing JS / TS / Svelte / React / Vue / Node / NPM / Mongo.

[davidbepo]

Are you straight out of 2015? You mention bugs that were solved before 2018. Lets take it apart.

>Defective design.

X11 had many specific protocol extensions, you can not even have hardware rendered OpenGL on X11 without the dri glx extension.

>Duplicated Efforts

Every desktop has its own X11 Compositor, lots of duplicated efforts as you say.

>Doesn't work over SSH

Wrong: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe

>No freesync support by default

X11/Xorg has no concept of sync or screen refresh rate by default

>Random Corruption of X programs

That sounds like a bug from 2015 that was since solved. Buffer mismanagement on Xorgs side.
X11 programs are handled by Xorg, it just passes over the final buffer.

> Still lacking feature parity

This is a feature, as most Xorg fanboys seeing every client being able to read your full input and output whenever they want as a feature. Parity on replicating X11s issues is not a goal.

>Lack of shell refresh support

A specific consequence of how the Gnome implemented the compositor, not a protocol issue. Case closed.

wow, i didnt think this level of copium was even possible

[dpeterc]

Working the way we need it, you mean any program being able read all your input and your screen whenever it wants?

Not any program, just the ones I choose to run on the desktop.
And yes, it works fine for me, allowing some functionality, which is hard to achieve otherwise.

[t1r0nama]

I use X daily, recently installed wayland and found out that vscode/pycharm won't run on it. Firefox bookmarks folders have problem with it. Also i am frequently sharing my display and on wayland i could not share just one window, it forces me to share my whole screen. I am not against wayland and would love to use it but wayland is broken, Simple as that.

[piotrj3]

Working the way we need it, you mean any program being able read all your input and your screen whenever it wants?

But that assumes it means you have compromised program already running what inherently means you are fucked anyway. This is also allowing some functionality that lacks in Wayland.

Windows resolves that by having options to have a choice - if you want to make secure input (login screens etc.) you can and for example admin prompt in windows isn't trackable by any aplication around.

[Volta]

It seems there are at least twenty two X fanboys here, so maybe you'll do some funding? Also, don't forget to fund good therapy for poor developers who may be sick after touching this unholy mess. On the other hand, your foundation will for sure be better than Linux and Mozilla foundations where money is wasted on stupid things.

[Volta]

But that assumes it means you have compromised program already running what inherently means you are fucked anyway. This is also allowing some functionality that lacks in Wayland.

No, keylogger isn't something we want in our systems and such assumption is a sane approach.

[Monsterovich]

It seems there are at least twenty two X fanboys here, so maybe you'll do some funding? Also, don't forget to fund good therapy for poor developers who may be sick after touching this unholy mess. On the other hand, your foundation will for sure be better than Linux and Mozilla foundations where money is wasted on stupid things.

What is wrong with the Linux Foundation?