C4 Engine Drops Linux Support, Calls It "Frankenstein OS"

[xeekei]

Sorry, he has valid points. People that don't understand how often Linux fails at very simple things that should have been fixed years ago. Part of the problem is the community which blames the user instead of admitting the weaknesses.

Do we still get screen tearing while scrolling up and down in a text editor or an internet browser? You bet! If you don't see it, you're blinded by your zeal. Or you need glasses.

Don't get me wrong, I love Gnu/Linux. Would not be using it for the past 15 years if I didn't. But, let's face it, it's not perfect. And when something doesn't work, it can mean a lot of wasted time for no justifiable reason. It also seems like Gnu/Linux developers have never heard of automated testing. I've had trouble installing Ubuntu or some other very popular distro just because I picked a non-standard options (like encrypt my disk, or whatever), the same option worked in a release candidate, doesn't work on a final release. Time and again.

GNU/Linux does have problems, but it sure isn't installing it anymore. Especially not Ubuntu. And no, I don't get screen tearing when I scroll because I use a v-synced compositor, which any normal user would too. Granted I haven't used Ubuntu in a while, maybe it actually does suck now. Then I wonder why it's still so popular. If he's not specifying any problems one get the feeling he just googled and found a few Linux terms like "Ubuntu 14.04" and "sudo apt-get". I don't believe he did that though. But I do believe he's being irrational.

[Fraxbe]

Maxwell problem

I have a GTX 750 Ti, and most live-cd's will not boot because of nouveau.

The solution is to edit the grub kernel command line to include

nouveau.modeset=0

This makes the livecd's bootable.

After the installation you may have to add that to the system grub config somewhere.

[sebastianlacuesta]

GNU/Linux does have problems, but it sure isn't installing it anymore. Especially not Ubuntu. And no, I don't get screen tearing when I scroll because I use a v-synced compositor, which any normal user would too. Granted I haven't used Ubuntu in a while, maybe it actually does suck now. Then I wonder why it's still so popular. If he's not specifying any problems one get the feeling he just googled and found a few Linux terms like "Ubuntu 14.04" and "sudo apt-get". I don't believe he did that though. But I do believe he's being irrational.

So irrational that it sounds as he was paid to write this.

[NotMine999]

Really?

Actually one of the developers read this damning list of Linux problems and agreed with it wholeheartedly. You may disagree with certain points, saying "I don't care", "I don't have this problem" or "this doesn't affect me", but the truth is, you don't have to agree with everything. The summary is what matters, and everything written under it is just fecking wrong and needs to be fixed or there's no road ahead.

As a software platform the Linux OS just doesn't exist. Full stop.

I read most of the online article, then I jumped to the summary. The summary seems as presumptive (or "clueless" as the case may be) as the main sections of the article.

It sounds like the author of the article doesn't want to see any bugs or regressions or similar errors in Linux. Really? They have NEVER had a BSOD in Windows?

It sounds like the author expects hardware issues to be resolved at the same rate as Windows. Really? Who in the Linux community can afford to subsizied that development work for a community that generally downloads the distributions? Most hardware vendors could care less about Linux drivers; "You want the datasheet, well, we MIGHT have one to give to you, but don't ask us for help figuring it out to work on Linux". As for sensors going un-noticed in systems, that is not the blame of the few LM-Sensors developers out there; it's a very small group of interested developers. When hardware vendors make private deals with chip vendors where no "spec sheets" are EVER published (not even under NDA), like Asus has done in the past in at least 3 cases (2 that I know involve ITE, and 1 is recent: ITE8771), how does that clueless author expect the Linux community to deal with that? The LM-Sensors developers handle as best they can through studies of data gathered from these unknown chips. The laptop vendors are probably the worst offenders, but laptops are some of the most tightly integrated bits of computing hardware that most of us use; the same can be said about those pesky laptop buttons that don't seem to work under Linux.

As for a standardized Linux distro, I guess that clueless author never heard of attempts at "LSB", or "Linux Standard Base". LSB was a good idea but very few distros bother to follow it anymore "with rigor". Then there is the generally accepted principle of Linux where the user can "customize" their install in varying degrees (packages, desktops, skins, etc.), even after the distributor has does their "customizations". That is a nice thing about Linux: freedom of choice. You want standards, stick with Windows where you can SxS ("side by side") load all the "unique or conflicting" DLLs you want in Windows 7, and probably Windows 8 also, so how can Windows distros actually be that "standard".

I agree on the lack of cooperation and "internal wars", but I think most of those come down to lots of philosophical reasons and a few technical reasons. Any 3 engineers can collectively come up with at least 4 or 5 different ways to solve the same problem.

As for "short cycles" in Linux, well, it keeps evolving to keep up with the times (to stay relevant), otherwise it would get relegated to the "pig bin" pretty fast. Then I looked back at that clueless author's "rant" about LTS distributions not supporting newer hardware and not wanting "backports" on LTS to support newer hardware. Geez! That kind of thinking suggests that distros should have "magical crystal balls to fortell the future and predict all the new hardware coming out over the next 5 to 7 years". Yeah right, and I got a bridge to sell you in NYC too....

Can't use old "open" APIs and ABIs anymore, eh? Ya mean you never looked up the word "deprecated", right? You never bothered to learn that Linux generally marks something as "deprecated" for quite some time, sometimes years, before it actually gets "pulled out of the tree". The "act" of pulling support for stuff out of the Linux "tree" is not taken lightly; a careful reading of Linus comments in LKML on user-facing ABI compatibility will tell you that he really doesn't want to mess up the user experience, and doesn't want other developers & maintainers to mess it up either. If that clueless author can't be bothered to keep up with developments in an evolving environment like Linux, then they really should "stick to Windows"...like Windows never "dropped" any system calls or supporting DLLs over it's lifespan, right?

Games are a long standing issue with Linux. Had that clueless author's summary just listed this and "GUI" I would not have called them "clueless".

No money in it? Really? All that clueless author is worried about is money? Sounds like that clueless author is totally clueless with regards to why many developers work in FOSS; it's definitely not about the money according to a number of developers that have traded personal emails with me.

The GUI is another long standing issue with Linux. Had that clueless author's summary just listed this and "games" I would not have called them "clueless".

I have a suggestion for that clueless author that wrote that senseless online posting about problems Linux: Go back to writing software that nobody cares about for Windows users.

[jimbohale]

I read most of the online article, then I jumped to the summary. The summary seems as presumptive (or "clueless" as the case may be) as the main sections of the article.

It sounds like the author of the article doesn't want to see any bugs or regressions or similar errors in Linux. Really? They have NEVER had a BSOD in Windows?

It sounds like the author expects hardware issues to be resolved at the same rate as Windows. Really? Who in the Linux community can afford to subsizied that development work for a community that generally downloads the distributions? Most hardware vendors could care less about Linux drivers; "You want the datasheet, well, we MIGHT have one to give to you, but don't ask us for help figuring it out to work on Linux". As for sensors going un-noticed in systems, that is not the blame of the few LM-Sensors developers out there; it's a very small group of interested developers. When hardware vendors make private deals with chip vendors where no "spec sheets" are EVER published (not even under NDA), like Asus has done in the past in at least 3 cases (2 that I know involve ITE, and 1 is recent: ITE8771), how does that clueless author expect the Linux community to deal with that? The LM-Sensors developers handle as best they can through studies of data gathered from these unknown chips. The laptop vendors are probably the worst offenders, but laptops are some of the most tightly integrated bits of computing hardware that most of us use; the same can be said about those pesky laptop buttons that don't seem to work under Linux.

As for a standardized Linux distro, I guess that clueless author never heard of attempts at "LSB", or "Linux Standard Base". LSB was a good idea but very few distros bother to follow it anymore "with rigor". Then there is the generally accepted principle of Linux where the user can "customize" their install in varying degrees (packages, desktops, skins, etc.), even after the distributor has does their "customizations". That is a nice thing about Linux: freedom of choice. You want standards, stick with Windows where you can SxS ("side by side") load all the "unique or conflicting" DLLs you want in Windows 7, and probably Windows 8 also, so how can Windows distros actually be that "standard".

I agree on the lack of cooperation and "internal wars", but I think most of those come down to lots of philosophical reasons and a few technical reasons. Any 3 engineers can collectively come up with at least 4 or 5 different ways to solve the same problem.

As for "short cycles" in Linux, well, it keeps evolving to keep up with the times (to stay relevant), otherwise it would get relegated to the "pig bin" pretty fast. Then I looked back at that clueless author's "rant" about LTS distributions not supporting newer hardware and not wanting "backports" on LTS to support newer hardware. Geez! That kind of thinking suggests that distros should have "magical crystal balls to fortell the future and predict all the new hardware coming out over the next 5 to 7 years". Yeah right, and I got a bridge to sell you in NYC too....

Can't use old "open" APIs and ABIs anymore, eh? Ya mean you never looked up the word "deprecated", right? You never bothered to learn that Linux generally marks something as "deprecated" for quite some time, sometimes years, before it actually gets "pulled out of the tree". The "act" of pulling support for stuff out of the Linux "tree" is not taken lightly; a careful reading of Linus comments in LKML on user-facing ABI compatibility will tell you that he really doesn't want to mess up the user experience, and doesn't want other developers & maintainers to mess it up either. If that clueless author can't be bothered to keep up with developments in an evolving environment like Linux, then they really should "stick to Windows"...like Windows never "dropped" any system calls or supporting DLLs over it's lifespan, right?

Games are a long standing issue with Linux. Had that clueless author's summary just listed this and "GUI" I would not have called them "clueless".

No money in it? Really? All that clueless author is worried about is money? Sounds like that clueless author is totally clueless with regards to why many developers work in FOSS; it's definitely not about the money according to a number of developers that have traded personal emails with me.

The GUI is another long standing issue with Linux. Had that clueless author's summary just listed this and "games" I would not have called them "clueless".

I have a suggestion for that clueless author that wrote that senseless online posting about problems Linux: Go back to writing software that nobody cares about for Windows users.

You clearly have never been involved in any real projects. Linux development is a fucking mosh pit of shit. You have to support all of these different distributions doing all of these different things with all of these different bugs on all of these different pieces of hardware. Any hardware made within the last year is pretty much guaranteed to have bugs, and a decent amount of that won't even boot. It's getting better, but to mock the author is just ridiculous. There is no such thing as keeping up, as when you have any real projects you have to support OS's running within the past like 2-3 years (meaning there has to be a 4-6 year window behind and in front of) and with native code that isn't even possible on Linux. You guys just don't see how bad it is. Windows is a complete hack itself but at least it's consistent and there aren't different distributions with different configurations of libraries. There are different versions but that's very easy to deal with, just target an older version and you're set. Not everyone is willing to deal with Linux, and the people who make up the Linux scene just don't help at all. People like Lennart understand what's wrong and are trying to fix it, then the idiots who are against modernizing it just make it unappealing when their voices are heard and the overall pace of development is held back.

[Xaero_Vincent]

It seems Eric Lengyel is aware of our discussion on Phoronix because he mentions us on his forum.

Why doesn't he join here and explain exactly what problems he was having getting Ubuntu 14.04 installed? Some of the most knowledgeable Linux users and developers roam Phoronix forums. At worst, if his problems are insurmountable, he could try maybe the latest Ubuntu 14.10, Mint 17.1, Debian Stable or Testing. Ubuntu isn't the only show in town.

Eric says that his engine runs fine on Linux it's just his problems relate to getting Linux to actually run and the problems he's having are known but aren't being addressed. However, something tells me that there are workarounds and if he needs help he should reach out to the community.

Being a developer, his issues may have greater weight/priority with distro developers at getting solved than a average user, especially now that this is becoming high-profile.

[ihatemichael]

Haha. This idiot is hilarious.

First he attacks the Linux community and calls Linux "Frankenstein OS", then he keeps making passive-aggressive attacks on his twitter.

Now he plays the victim by saying he is attacked:

https://twitter.com/EricLengyel/status/554834585851154432

I have never seen so much idiocy from a single person on a single day. Jeez, glad he's gone from this community.

[Xaero_Vincent]

You clearly have never been involved in any real projects. Linux development is a fucking mosh pit of shit. You have to support all of these different distributions doing all of these different things with all of these different bugs on all of these different pieces of hardware. Any hardware made within the last year is pretty much guaranteed to have bugs, and a decent amount of that won't even boot. It's getting better, but to mock the author is just ridiculous. There is no such thing as keeping up, as when you have any real projects you have to support OS's running within the past like 2-3 years (meaning there has to be a 4-6 year window behind and in front of) and with native code that isn't even possible on Linux. You guys just don't see how bad it is. Windows is a complete hack itself but at least it's consistent and there aren't different distributions with different configurations of libraries. There are different versions but that's very easy to deal with, just target an older version and you're set. Not everyone is willing to deal with Linux, and the people who make up the Linux scene just don't help at all. People like Lennart understand what's wrong and are trying to fix it, then the idiots who are against modernizing it just make it unappealing when their voices are heard and the overall pace of development is held back.

Forget about supporting multiple distributions. Look at how Valve supports Steam on Linux as that is the ideal way:

1) Only "officially" target and support only 1 or 2 distributions and only the last few releases of those distributions. Valve only officially supports Ubuntu and SteamOS and that's it; That hasn't stopped other distributions such as Arch from working with Steam--it just means the distro develops a package with the proper library dependencies and/or workaround patches to make it run on that Linux flavor.

2) Bundle the necessary libraries with the program itself and make it all self-contained so that it will work on other distributions. Valve does this with their Steam Runtime. Just don't bundle "libgcc_s.so" and "libstdc++.so" with the program because that can cause problems and shouldn't be necessary.

[Marc Driftmeyer]

Sounds more like he doesn't get the command line. In OSX/windows it's possible to develop for both oses without touching the cli at all. In Linux not as easy. I don't know of any distros that ship with all the libs pre installed. That might be a good project to setup. Say a Debian/ Ubuntu distro that when you install from the cd includes all libs/headers etc for gtk/gnome/OpenGL/SDL

The only one with an intelligent comment. Anyone whose primary development is command line based clearly doesn't write in Cocoa and sure as hell cannot declare Linux has a better set of APIs, even at the CLI. Not by a fucking long shot.

The instability of many aspects of Linux for Client/Consumer based large AAA applications is one of many reasons Linux will never be more than a niche.

GNOME is intelligent enough to basically just copy the hell out of Cocoa wherever they can. KDE has a hard-on for Qt customize garbage UIs, littered with constant bugs that ``will get fixed by KDE 5.x.x'' that never happens.

If gaming on Linux were going to take off it would be with Android, and that platform can't rack up squat for revenues and interest relative to iOS.

Any developer wanting to make money, outside of the console, focuses on two areas: Windows desktop and iOS. It's quite clear Apple's next phase of development will be tying iOS gaming into OS X and extending iCloud backend services strictly for it.

Linux [steam included] doesn't have the finances to touch Apple, Google and Microsoft. It never will be more than a big time server hosting platform.

Without large development houses willing to dump billions into Linux gaming and force Linus to have a stable ABI this platform will always be a consumer based work-in-progress.

Steam would be wise to start dumping money into FreeBSD with its modern infrastructure updates and focus on LLVM/Clang toolsets. The lack of GPU matching quality drivers is the one area holding FreeBSD back from surpassing Linux on the desktop. That'll change.

[Marc Driftmeyer]

You clearly have never been involved in any real projects. Linux development is a fucking mosh pit of shit. You have to support all of these different distributions doing all of these different things with all of these different bugs on all of these different pieces of hardware. Any hardware made within the last year is pretty much guaranteed to have bugs, and a decent amount of that won't even boot. It's getting better, but to mock the author is just ridiculous. There is no such thing as keeping up, as when you have any real projects you have to support OS's running within the past like 2-3 years (meaning there has to be a 4-6 year window behind and in front of) and with native code that isn't even possible on Linux. You guys just don't see how bad it is. Windows is a complete hack itself but at least it's consistent and there aren't different distributions with different configurations of libraries. There are different versions but that's very easy to deal with, just target an older version and you're set. Not everyone is willing to deal with Linux, and the people who make up the Linux scene just don't help at all. People like Lennart understand what's wrong and are trying to fix it, then the idiots who are against modernizing it just make it unappealing when their voices are heard and the overall pace of development is held back.

Second intelligent comment.