C4 Engine Drops Linux Support, Calls It "Frankenstein OS"

[Meteorhead]

Boy, forgive me for not reading +100 posts, just scanning through them, but I wast about 99% sure that such a news would instantly summon a herd of Linux lovers claiming that this dude is incompetent. Sure, all of us have some rough edges, and even though I'm mostly concerned with HPC simulations, I have come across the opinion of some highly regarded game developers, and I can't stop facepalming.

Putting that aside, thinking about criticism isn't a bad idea. All people claim that even their grandma can install linux on their sowing machine. I would like to comment to these people: show me JUST ONE, COMPLETE documentation of preseeding. Automated install of Ubuntu is a nightmare. I am a Windows desktop user (and will remain one), but I am the administrator of a linux GPU cluster. While in general my experience with proprietary linux graphics drivers is generally bad, most things I can find the solution to. But preseeding is the work of the devil. The fact that I have to find un-documented switches in forum entries and hope for the to work (which they don't) is a joke. I have not been able to set up a local apt repository on a cobbler server, and configure preseed to find it, and install a single package from there when PXE booting from the server. This stuff is highly undocumented and good luck to anyone who tries it. Should you succeed, please tell me how you did it.

So you can say that linux is great, and it's mature and stuff, but if I have a Windows admin issue (rarely happens, as I'm mostly a desktop user, but my recent PowerShell fiddling did introduce me to the bussiness), msdn.microsoft.com is the first place, and if that don't work, social.msdn.com is a hit 99% of times. The first is a fairly comprehensive source of documentation, while the latter is community (and corporate) source of info.

Again, please save me from the flame war. I was just trying to point out that there is some truth to the criticism this dude gave.

[Shoost]

They can't use those other OSes easily either. Most people get them preloaded and preconfigured and most of them (that I've met) are terrified of the prospect of something going wrong. They are fsck'ed if it does, because those friendly computer repair shops charge an arm and a leg to solve whatever (minor) problem has occured.

The kind of utterly frustrating problems that Windows has, simply don't occur under Linux. E.g. the prospect of downloading something under Windows scares even me. I just can't be certain if something uninvited is piggybacking its way onto the machine. With Linux the chances of me actively setting a "nasty" executable and running it, is a lot smaller.

Is Linux trouble free? No, far from it, but comparing a preloaded, next-next-finish, Windows appliance machine with a user installed Linux distro is comparing apples and oranges. Give an end user a no OS machine and a Windows installation thumbdrive and see how easy Windows really is.

Permissions on *nix are better but that's mainly because linux is not a big market share. And you still have to be a massive tard to get a virus on windoze.

[Shoost]

so, dismissing platform is topnotch? @.@"

A platform 2 guys on the forum care about that won't bring me or the engine many customers.

at one side you invite and in same breath you don't care? @.@"

See above ^^

But this looks like it will be straightened out anyway. Ubuntu is not the only linux.

now, let's see
basing your bread and butter project on work done by one developer when that developer can have whims like discontinuing whole platform?

Most the engines I have tried are now discontinued for ALL platforms.

one would have to be insane to bet on that horse. not only you risk on getting burned late in the project, you risk your time and investment.

This is always a big risk. It's a bigger risk when you are on the hook t a corporation. I have lifetime updates.

whim like that is not "terrible at marketing", that is childish and immature case of handling business without one shred of thought what some move means for your customers.

Haha, like Linus Torvald on any given day of the week? You will have to stop using all software if you keep things to those standards.

how can anyone be stupid to bet on something so unreliable when you have choices like Source or Unreal?

So instead of horrible microsoft controlling my life, some OTHER megacorporation should. Funny guy. You are even more likely to get burned this way than to get burned by a little guy. People don't use those engines if they are not AAA developers for good reasons.

Aside from those Unity is a joke on most levels and reminds me a lot of RPG maker but probably OK if you make a cell phone game. If you want C++ and don't have millions to burn then C4 is really the only choice.

also, even considering this engine for Linux now would just contribute to what author thinks about Linux when he talks about things not working. he is obviously not willing to make it work. so, why add another things for users to have problems with?

Who cares what he thinks, so long as he performs his job? I don't want to marry the guy, that's not why I bought the engine. You must have to ban a lot of products from your household if you must always agree with their makers. I got a laugh from his announcement, obviously he was just pissed off, and it's already clear he'll end up supporting linux again anyway.

Mods did not approve my last post in response to you. Hopefully they are not already in crybaby free speech suppression mode.

[r_a_trip]

And you still have to be a massive tard to get a virus on windoze.

With which you've just written off the majority of Windows users. Surfing the web should not be an exercise in dodging malware. Also, permissions are better or not, regardless of installed base.

[TheBlackCat]

The only bad part here is the way the post came out, which was not tactful.

No, this isn't about marketing. He dropped support and changed the license. He didn't just say something, he made actual changes to how the engine worked and how it was allowed to be used.

Haha, like Linus Torvald on any given day of the week? You will have to stop using all software if you keep things to those standards.

Again, this isn't about what he said, it is about what he did. Linus can curse at NVidia all he wants, it doesn't actually have any real impact on anyone using his kernel. Now if he cursed at NVidia, then went and stripped out the NVidia code from the Linux kernel and changed the license so no one else could ever add it back even on their own machines, then we might have a valid comparison. But Linus never did that, it was all talk.

The only stuff he ever dropped support for was some incredibly old ATI cards

Again, so far. But he has shown that he could drop support for something else at any time, or forbid you from using your own code for something else at any time.

You don't have to worry about customers and you also don't have to worry about the bills. You aren't bleeding money every time you waste a couple hours dicking around with some random OS.

Thankfully I also don't have to care about the projects I depend on randomly changing what they support or what they allow me to do with my own code, since I would never depend on such a project to begin with.

This is always a big risk. It's a bigger risk when you are on the hook t a corporation. I have lifetime updates.

Most big corporations don't make platform support or licensing decisions based on temper tantrums.

Fortunately C4 would never completely fold as Mr. Lengyel can always go back to contracting in gaming industry part time if necessary.

Ah, I see now. He is immortal and invulnerable. There is nothing that could ever make him fundamentally incapable of continuing development. You don't understand the concept of the "bus factor", do you? This may help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

[GreatEmerald]

Putting that aside, thinking about criticism isn't a bad idea. All people claim that even their grandma can install linux on their sowing machine. I would like to comment to these people: show me JUST ONE, COMPLETE documentation of preseeding. Automated install of Ubuntu is a nightmare. I am a Windows desktop user (and will remain one), but I am the administrator of a linux GPU cluster. While in general my experience with proprietary linux graphics drivers is generally bad, most things I can find the solution to. But preseeding is the work of the devil. The fact that I have to find un-documented switches in forum entries and hope for the to work (which they don't) is a joke. I have not been able to set up a local apt repository on a cobbler server, and configure preseed to find it, and install a single package from there when PXE booting from the server. This stuff is highly undocumented and good luck to anyone who tries it. Should you succeed, please tell me how you did it.

AutoYaST: http://doc.opensuse.org/projects/autoyast/

[justmy2cents]

:lol:

One emotional outburst and you dismiss a developer forever? Well, you will have to stop using all software. Starting with anything Linus ever touched.

emotional outburst is screaming out of rage, not dropping nuke.

I own quite a few game engines that have been discontinued for ALL platforms :lol:

that just confirms my claim. how come i don't after 20 years or so of doing business? i learned the hard way in the early years which project can survive and deliver and which one can't. checking viability/license/development model.... is more important than price. you're betting your work on it

There's only one platform that matters if you want to make desktop game, windoze. Of if you are a cell phone game making retard, you have to deal with crapple.

The rest are just some fantasy/gimmick. If you were the only decent paid engine supporting Linux then you could rake in some customers, but now even valve is going there so it's way too late to develop a big loyal following.

i don't even like Windows or OSX, but name calling shows your maturity

Turns out it works fine, he just got tired of wasting time on Ubuntu constantly. People forget what a giant time waster Linux can be. If you are just using it for one thing it gets hard to justify spending all that time on it. But Ubuntu is not the only option.

Looks like he will be supporting it through another distro, it was just a bit of an outburst. When you don't have 50 PR monkeys to spin your words sometimes they don't come out very friendly. You are way too emotional about it. I don't care if he's secretly a nazi cannibal (though I'm sure he's not) the engine itself is what matters.

i find the relation of taking a toy to a child in the park. he will cry until mother buys him another one and then its like nothing happened.

also, as far as price goes. Unreal is not 25%. it's fair model as it is possible

How much do I have to pay for Unreal Engine 4?
UE4 is available for $19 per user per month, with a 5% royalty on gross revenue after the first $3,000 per game per calendar quarter from commercial products.

Developers in Europe pay €19 per user per month, including VAT, and the 5% royalty applies here as well.

you can even cancel subscription after first payment and you're still owning viable license. it's a license tailored to fit indie studios with the least start cost possible.

[Shoost]

No, this isn't about marketing. He dropped support and changed the license. He didn't just say something, he made actual changes to how the engine worked and how it was allowed to be used.


Again, this isn't about what he said, it is about what he did. Linus can curse at NVidia all he wants, it doesn't actually have any real impact on anyone using his kernel. Now if he cursed at NVidia, then went and stripped out the NVidia code from the Linux kernel and changed the license so no one else could ever add it back even on their own machines, then we might have a valid comparison. But Linus never did that, it was all talk.

No, it IS a marketing issue. Corporations do the same all the time. If he didn't add in some dumb comments about it we would not be having this discussion.

Again, so far. But he has shown that he could drop support for something else at any time, or forbid you from using your own code for something else at any time.

He probably won't even drop linux for real, as I already said. Which makes it even more of a simple faux pas. There was no need for any of this.

Thankfully I also don't have to care about the projects I depend on randomly changing what they support or what they allow me to do with my own code, since I would never depend on such a project to begin with.

Good thing you are not in software then, that's how all software is.

Most big corporations don't make platform support or licensing decisions based on temper tantrums.

Sure they do, or even worse reasons such as intentionally trying to take over a market and kill it. Just look at all the stupid people who thought that Microsoft was serious about supporting XNA and wasn't doing it just to screw over competition. Now they are discontinued from ALL platofrms :lol:

Ah, I see now. He is immortal and invulnerable. There is nothing that could ever make him fundamentally incapable of continuing development. You don't understand the concept of the "bus factor", do you? This may help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

Give me a break. Software companies that make it ten years are like humans that make it to 100. I have no doubt Valve will become useless once Gabe eats himself to death, and that has got to be coming a lot sooner.

[prodigy_]

I would like to comment to these people: show me JUST ONE, COMPLETE documentation of preseeding.

Ubuntu != Linux. For all we care, Ubuntu may burn in hell. Debian certainly has documentation on preseeding though:

https://www.debian.org/releases/etch/hppa/apb.html.en

https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/example-preseed.txt

[gamerk2]

I hate this train of thought. Every system has it's draw backs. As far as this "lets cut the guy some slack", no just no. You don't bash someones favorite OS because you're too stupid to use it. This guys is a programmer? I wouldn't touch his junk with a 10 foot pole if those statements about him not being able to install Ubuntu is true. My 10 year old runs MINT!!!

Here's the problem: Developers like me don't want to waste time debugging someone else's code. We have enough to do on our own without having to figure out why "some feature on some hardware" doesn't seem to be working as expected. Likewise, when you have state of the art debugging capability on Windows, we don't want to regress back to CLI.

Partially, yes. The thing is that Linux is in a steady flow of development. A lot of APIs are totally stable (e.g. Kernel to userland). I mean, how often do you really upGRADE Windows? E.g going from 9x to XP was a pain for a plethora of programs, drivers and so on. You definitely have a problem there. I update my kernel about 1-2 times per month on several machines.

To be fair, 9x to XP were totally different kernels, as XP was descended from NT. And *most* stuff ran fine; it was usually incompatibility with a system DLL file that caused problems, rather then the host OS. Even today, I still have Win9x apps that still run more or less fine.

Furthermore, related to kernel stuff, I can 100% understand that kernel people don't want blobs to taint the kernel, to mess up, but they have no chance to give support and debug anything since the blob is closed. It just doesn't make sense there.

This is one area I can say Linux is designed WRONG. Device drivers should not be in the kernel at all, period, blob or otherwise.

Userland might be different. But here you have LTS and enterprise versions which tackle that culprit. Of course it would be fine if some things were more stable in this regard on long terms. I definitely give you that. But then, a lot of games that worked in W9x aren't running now in W7 or 8. Seems that we will have a DOS... err... WindowsBOX full emulator in a few years? Or maybe we can hope to run that elderly software through wine then.

Again, most of the apps I have from the 9x days work. A few won't due to the dropping of 16-bit support, so native Windows 16-bit apps are kind of out of luck right now. But pretty much everything else still woks. Worst case, you still have XP mode to fall back on (though HW drivers start to become a concern at that point.)

The hell he was talking about is exactly why I left anything microsoft related. The bugs and the "fixes". Updates criple goodworking libraries so office would not crash due to very stupid bugs in office.
Bug reports get acknowledged 6 months after submission with fixes. And I am talking real OS things here.

Nowadays, DLL updates are very minor, usually adds. Worst case, you plop the requisite version of a .dll file in the local directory, rather then using the system .dll. Yes, DLL Hell was a major problem back in Win9x, but it's been a non-problem for over a decade now.

It wouldn't be such a big hell if all those proclaimed windows administrators have no clue about windows what so ever... Try asking a windows administrator how to add a second ip to the interface, or how to add a service, and start that service.

Most are decent. It comes down to training, same as with IT personnel working on any other OS.

Then windows has this driver hell. Everything is a dll, no real seperation of processes. The printing engine is part of the kernel. (Although running in the outer layer).

All .DLLs are just .exe's compiled without a Main() method; they're library containers, nothing more. Any functionality you want exposed to more then one application *should* be in a .dll file to keep executable sizes (including the kernel) down.

Take a GPU driver. The Windows kernel exposes a set of APIs, the driver .dll is the implementation that communicates to the kernel. That's how it *should* be (though I'd prefer OS2's Ring 2 rather then bumping drivers to Ring 0, personally). This makes it easier to support hardware; if I make a new GPU, all I need is to code the driver, no need to update the Windows kernel itself to support it.

Yes, DLL Hell was a major problem in 9x. It got fixed in NT. How anyone can support the way Linux handles this is beyond me.

And of course, you cannot do any real work without having a graphics screen and a cmd.exe window (because windows don't know terminals), because you need the cmd.exe window to give the right parameters, and then probably you can click somewhere.

Windows actually has a terminal program users can install, and I know debug builds can boot directly to it (though I don't think that's an end-user option). Even then, Windows is designed around it's GUI. It is not designed, nor was it ever designed to not run without its GUI. That's a design choice, not a drawback.

He is right in that linux at this moment might be some kind of hell. From an expert point of view. Ubuntu is not the easiest to install. As long as you do a clean install, and do exactly what ubuntu wants you to do it might work. But the last three dist-upgrades of my machine always ended in a non-bootable machine because of untested assumptions. LDAP does not work for an LTS distribution on a platform that is supported, because it is not tested.
After those "horrors" (actually anoyances) I upgraded to jessie. Which works wonderfully, until you do an upgrade and systemd gets installed.
Again, 3 systems that suddenly did not know how to parse a correct fstab, and hence were unbootable.
Don't get me started on pulse-audio... It's been wrecking my setups sinds 2011, although the concept is not that bad.

So yes, linux is also a kind of a hell. But certainly not the kind of hell windows or Mac OS-X is. (Don't get me started on the last one).

I haven't used Linux since Fedora 6 was the big thing. But I remember how long it took to get the right libs downloaded and configured to actually DO anything. And I remember everything breaking again the first time I did an update. And so on. And from many of the comment I read here, this still happens quite often (though it does seem to be getting better).

This points to a design issue. It's 2015, and this shouldn't be considered acceptable to anyone.