Matthew Garrett: How-To Drive Developers From OS X To Linux

[wizard69]

Strangely, I find myself to fight and struggle against the computer every time I have to use a Mac at work.

There should be formations to i3wm in schools

Try being stuck with Windows at work.

[Luke_Wolf]

And in 10 more years, OS X will still be out in front for UNIX based OS platforms, more rich environment of frameworks, expanding its dominance via iOS and OS X, and Linux will still be raving about having a dozen DE that are free, but constantly breaking between upgrades.

You clearly haven't been paying attention to marketshare statistics if you think that. It's honestly doubtful that Apple will even still be relevant in 10 years, iOS is now at 13% share in the smartphone market and 2013 was the year that Android passed up Apple in the tablet industry, and Apple currently only accounts for 32% of shipped tablets and has a consistently shrinking share. with iOS irrelevant in the Smartphone market and quickly becoming irrelevant in the tablet market, the Mac marketshare is set for it's own implosion down to it's core userbase, as developers will not be inclined to deal with the extra cost of purchasing Macs in order to target 10% of the market which will then kill iOS completely because the barrier to entry is just too high (nobody wants to pay an extra $2000 for a mac + $100 for an app store license + an extra $1000 or so for whatever framework you're licensing since you don't want to rewrite the entire program in objective-C for 10% of the market share + a percentage cut of your profits...) .

On the other hand in 10 years the SteamMachines should be dominating the console market, and SteamOS gaming desktops/laptops should have become a thing and made inroads by then. That said with the BSDs now supporting Radeon (albeit they still need to backport things like Dynamic Power Management and such), and otherwise catching up on driver support it's well within the possibilities that 10 years from now that DragonFly BSD might become a dominant force due to it heading towards a microkernel based architecture, or even GENODE, HelenOS, etc... too far out to predict.

[wizard69]

I almost bought a MacBook Pro Retina instead of a Thinkpad, and I don't like OS X or Apple's walled garden at all. My girlfriend's new retina MacBook feels like a higher quality machine than my new Thinkpad. Lenovo put in a crappier screen than promised, the trackpad is only so-so and the laptop overall just doesn't have the same feel to it that older Thinkpads had. I could be convinced to stand on top of a T42, but I'm not going to risk doing that with the latest T440s range.

If this was iOS I could understand the walled garden comment but that really doesn't apply to Mac OS. Well at least not yet. Think about it Apple has driven the development of an entirely new compiler chain that is open and a snap to install on the Mac. Not much to keep you out there.

No matter how hardcore open-source and Linux/*BSD I am, these days I want to buy something that just works when it comes to basic hardware and drivers; even though I know how to fix most problems, I just don't want to bother.

It is a concept that applies to any trade really, if your earnings are dependent upon certain tools you expect those tools to work reliably. It can be likened to the machinist that like to tinker with and rebuild machine tools. It is great to be able to rebuild/repair a machine but most people with an income dependent on their tools would rather have the tool be productive, trouble free and require minimal maintenance effort.

I imagine the main reason even seasoned Linux users and developers get Apple laptops is because they Just Work. It's easier to start out with a high quality working MacBook and install Virtualbox than to start messing with installation media, graphics and peripheral drivers and Xorg configuration. Even configuring something as basic as a trackpad to not be irritating is still a struggle.

Ever notice in the Windows world that people carry a mouse around with their laptops? It is surprising just how bad some hardware/driver implementations are even in the Windows world.

The preference for Apple has probably less to do with Linux itself than the sorry state of hardware support from vendors and quality of average consumer-oriented laptops. Come up with a LinuxBook that feels and works out of the box like a MacBook, and more people would use Linux... Something like the Chromebook Pixel, but less handicapped.

This is a possibility. The problem is who will do the hardware.

[wizard69]

+1. The majority of people will never, ever reinstall an operating system. For Linux to succeed in this market, it has to be pre-installed. And being able to choose the hardware to support in advance would eliminate 99% of the problems with installing Linux on random hardware configurations. I wonder what would happen if Canonical sold Ubuntu LTS laptops, with hardware that was guaranteed to "just work" for the 5 year lifetime of the LTS. Would there be any success?

I doubt there would be success. Ubuntu isn't all it is cracked up to be.

It's amazing that Chrome OS has managed to take 20% of the laptop market in a few years. There was a big demand there, but the Linux suppliers failed to offer what people wanted. The question is simple: can I go into a shop today and buy a well-priced decent quality Linux laptop? Because that is what it would take for Linux to succeed.

I'd be willing to suggest that 20% is pretty optimistic. I have never seen a Chrome device in public.

For Linux to succeed it needs marketing as well as hardware. Even then if you look back through the history of the PC many alternative operating systems have gotten no where. It isn't a uniquely Linux issue. There needs to be a certain level of mass acceptance that has little to do with features, quality or usability. Be and Amiga are two examples of not gaining that mind share. Of course at the time MicroSoft could do no wrong in the market.

[GermanyChris]

You clearly haven't been paying attention to marketshare statistics if you think that. It's honestly doubtful that Apple will even still be relevant in 10 years, iOS is now at 13% share in the smartphone market and 2013 was the year that Android passed up Apple in the tablet industry, and Apple currently only accounts for 32% of shipped tablets and has a consistently shrinking share. with iOS irrelevant in the Smartphone market and quickly becoming irrelevant in the tablet market, the Mac marketshare is set for it's own implosion down to it's core userbase, as developers will not be inclined to deal with the extra cost of purchasing Macs in order to target 10% of the market which will then kill iOS completely because the barrier to entry is just too high (nobody wants to pay an extra $2000 for a mac + $100 for an app store license + an extra $1000 or so for whatever framework you're licensing since you don't want to rewrite the entire program in objective-C for 10% of the market share + a percentage cut of your profits...) .

On the other hand in 10 years the SteamMachines should be dominating the console market, and SteamOS gaming desktops/laptops should have become a thing and made inroads by then. That said with the BSDs now supporting Radeon (albeit they still need to backport things like Dynamic Power Management and such), and otherwise catching up on driver support it's well within the possibilities that 10 years from now that DragonFly BSD might become a dominant force due to it heading towards a microkernel based architecture, or even GENODE, HelenOS, etc... too far out to predict.

You're assuming that Apple competes in the market share race that's a big stretch. Apple creates and eco system which you either appreciate and buy into or not they are not trying to produce more tablets and phones than all other manufacturers combined. People have been warning of the doom of Apple for 40 years and the only time they were close is when they were doing the things that the people sounding the alarm said they ought to be doing.

[curaga]

with iOS irrelevant in the Smartphone market and quickly becoming irrelevant in the tablet market, the Mac marketshare is set for it's own implosion down to it's core userbase, as developers will not be inclined to deal with the extra cost of purchasing Macs in order to target 10% of the market which will then kill iOS completely because the barrier to entry is just too high (nobody wants to pay an extra $2000 for a mac + $100 for an app store license + an extra $1000 or so for whatever framework you're licensing since you don't want to rewrite the entire program in objective-C for 10% of the market share + a percentage cut of your profits...) .

Indeed, the biggest barrier of entry to iOS programming is that you have to buy a Mac. Would be smart of them to open up iOS development, but hey, that'd cost them Mac sales and lock-in.

[wizard69]

Its's not just that. As far as I can see, Macbook is the only premium laptop still sold in retail that does not have a touch screen. My local stores have laptops that are:

• Low/Mid/Premium Windows 8 touchscreens
• Low end (physically huge, low resolution) Windows 8 non-touchscreens (these are rare, but I do see some)
• Macbooks

I don't think it is that bad locally. I do notice that many of those low end machines are basically worthless as general purpose machines. If you have more limited needs they may be passable. Out of the box most of Apples machines are well equipped and surprisingly priced fairly well.

Where are the premium non-touchscreens? Where are the high resolution matte displays?

You heard of throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks? The PC world is seeing the significant success Apple is having with Tablets and sees touch screens as a competitive feature when in a laptop. In other words they don't have a clue.

It is suprising that PC laptop manufacturers were so quick to embrace the touchscreen, when the best selling laptops in the world at the time were non-touchscreen.

Again to me it is a case of seeing what sticks. Collectively they don't have a clue as to how to package a competitive machine. The reputation of Windows in the buying public has sunk into the gutter so Windows is no longer a selling feature. Touch screen tech is new and in the publics eye due to tablets and cell phones. So they offer up these notebooks in the hopes that they get some traction with the public.

The problem of course is that there are few good use cases for a touch screen laptop.

According to NPD, only 11% of notebooks sold in 2013 have touchscreens, and yet that is all I see in my local stores. Where are the premium non-touchscreen PC laptops?

You need to go online and look at the manufactures web sites, especially the sections devoted to commercial sales.

Did manufacturers really believe that every premium laptop buyer wants a touchscreen? Or did Microsoft buy/bully them into it? Despite all the evidence to the contrary of premium buyers continuing to buy non-touchscreen Macbooks?

It is a knee jerk reaction to the declining sales due to the uptick in tablet sales and the success of Apples notebooks.

Disclaimer: my local stores may not be respresentative of all areas, but no doubt are representative of many.

I just see this as further evidence that the market is really really bad for PC manufactures right now.

[wizard69]

I have it the other way around.

I was working with windows at my previous job due to requirements (PCs owned by operator we worked at). At home I used linux for all my projects and development, usually just ubuntu to keep things simple, but I used Crux, Arch and other more "hardcore" distributions in the past and I like them too.

Nothing wrong with that.

When I came to work for my current employer they were initially set up as a "mac workplace". I got a slightly used macbook pro 2009 era (13" horrible 1200x800 resolution). I liked the chance to finally learn Mac OS X tho since I never had one before.

That is an old machine, you do realize that right.

The thing is horrible. Slow slow IO caused by the OS/scheduler bugs they have, horrible-non-existing package management for anything which needs to install global libraries (see uninstalling things like postgresql in Mac OS X!!), multitudes of half-assed OSS repositories like homebrew which usually screw things up etc.

Honestly I find this puzzling. Many times, maybe once every two weeks or so, I run a Brew update and a App Store update side by side and have never had an issue. It does slow down disk access but the system is kept up to date that way without issue. If I'm feeling reckless I even use pip at the same time to update my Python 3 installation.

Don't even get me started on working with a Mac using PC keyboard.

I hate the damn thing, even the UI is horrible. IMHO Ubuntu is already ahead with integrated calendar, proper launcher app etc. But that's just me I guess.

Yes I would agree it is probably you. App integration between the iPhone and the Mac is one reason I would have a hard time leaving the platform.

The only reason I like the fact that I have a Mac now is that I can release my stuff for iPhones/iPads too.

One thing I noticed tho, coming from Europe originally is that US/Canada has this "iCrap" fever. 90% of people have an iPhone and if they own a tablet it's an iPad. If they own a computer it's a MacBook. When questioned why, they usually don't really have a proper reason tho.

And you are the judge of what is proper. Further why do they have to give you an explanation?

Look at it this way, from the standpoint of a Mac user the rest of the world is in the dark ages. When I break out my iPad the feeling I get is that over 35 years of technology buying, nothing I've ever owned has worked as well as the iPad. That is not stretching the truth either, the machine just keeps on ticking. The experience is similar with the Mac Book, though it is so old it Is becoming frustrating. It is my Mac Pro that broke me of the habit of constantly buying new hardware and doing Linux upgrades in the hopes that nagging issues here and there are finally resolved.

Now that I think about it my Mac Pro probably saved me some coin due to using it successfully for so long.

I have a co-worker, really bright guy who buys all things Apple only and spends $100+ monthly on apps which are usually available free for other platforms, but he never gives a reasonable answer as to why. It's simply great marketing, that's all.

That is a bad app habit!

[wizard69]

It's annoying that so many people spread their opinion as fact!

I don't find OS X to be "polished" at all. Unfortunately, I have to work with OS X quite a bit as a dev platform (to develop iOS apps), and it's always a pain in the ass. The default terminal app is awful, the Finder is the worst file manager ever made, and updating software is a patchwork job: like with Windows, only officially supported Apple software gets updated from Apple (and even there, some software is updated separate via the App Store). It's also weird for me to hear that people "love" iTunes: it's an OK music player, but far from perfect. I guess the only reason you might need it is if you bought a lot of DRM music off iTunes and are now locked into it. "Clever" trick, Apple. Nice.

What DRM? That was gotten rid of a long time ago. Further it wasn't Apple that insisted on DRM at first, it was Apple after Corning the market that got many labels to drop DRM.

As a developer, desktop Linux is a dream come true, a dream I've been having for many years. Some people complain about "polish" and fragmentation, but honestly all the major desktop environments do the job, and do it well enough: whether its GNOME, KDE, Xfce (my favorite) or others, you're in good hands. Better hands, in my opinion, than the frustrating OS X desktop. You have a window system, an application launcher, good terminals, world-class dev tools, and the major standard web browsers. Is that really not good enough for you?

It is a question of perspective, what you seem to think is passable on Linux many of us consider to be junk. Even hen you can run XWindows on a Mac and get all the goodies you want from that environment.

You just want to make sure that you have hardware that is properly supported by your OS: indeed, when it's not supported, it's hell. That's why you do research before you buy, as usual. Or why not buy a nice machine from system76 or another company with a Linux desktop pre-installed?

Would that not be exactly what Mac users do. They buy A Mac to get well supported hardware that just works.

There are some good points made here about multi-touch/gesture. I guess that's a gap that needs to be filled. I haven't suffered from it *personally*.

I have access to a number of Windows laptops at work and I have to say muscle memory has me constantly trying to use the supplied track pads as if the actually worked. Once you get use to the integrated track pads on Apples laptops, other laptops just feel like crap.

Mac users aren't avoiding the switch to Linux because it's not good enough. They are avoiding the switch because they don't want to change their habits. I understand that reason, but it quite a different one!

I think you mis the point of this thread, it isn't about switching but rather developers showing a real preference for Apples machines. Especially developers that can basically call their own shots when it comes to hardware purchases.

Anyway, usability aside, you should be switching to Linux because you value freedom and want to contribute to it. So stop being lazy and change your habits today! It's really not that hard.

This is the most asinine statement I've yet seen in this thread. If you are really concerned about freedom you would be fighting the current administration in Washington, demanding a return to respect for the Constitution. Here is a little bit of reality for you, Linux is an operating system incapable of doing anything for you to assure your freedom.

In any event side tracked enough. As a software developer freedom is in your hands, you can choose to distribute your software however you would like. Frankly if you are really serious about freedom you would avoid GPL which takes away your freedoms for god know what reason. Maintaining freedom requires careful thinking about how you license your software but also how you respect the desire of others.

[wizard69]

I seriously find comments like that funny. If you have problems to get your system stable after a distro upgrade, have it ever occurred to you that you maybe use the wrong distro?

Nope! Here is the killer with Linux, new hardware requires new distros, often bleeding edge distros, to support that hardware. This support for new hardware has never been as good as what Apple does and frankly Apple is at best slow fully supporting new hardware.

That being said Intel has been far more active recently getting support into new kernels and libraries ahead of new hardware. Still you are talking new kernels here with an avalanche of library updating and fixing.

It isn't like I haven't gone through this several times, new hardware feature can take forever to be supported correctly. It isn't a distro problem per say, they all suffer, however a more bleeding edge distro will get you hardware support earlier. Of course then you are doing bleeding edge. In the end it is pretty ugly.