The GNOME Foundation Is Running Short On Money

[TheBlackCat]

It was? They did a horrible job.

So "UI research with real experts" is great, unless you personally don't like it, then they must have done a bad job. Because of course you, who is not an expert and has done no research whatsoever, couldn't possibly have wrong ideas about usability. But of course all those people who complain about Gnome usability are just idiots, since Gnome has done "UI research with real experts". There is a word for that: hypocrisy.

Care to name it and all the components required?

Don't know and don't care. It was enabled automatically when I installed a language that uses input methods. I think it is built-in as long as KDE is built with input method support. I don't need to know or care what backend were being used (although I think you are able to switch backends if you really want to).

I actually think KDE devs are overdoing the need to integrate GTK or Wx or Tk applications into Qt.

KDE devs want their users to have a good experience no matter what DE their application is run under or what toolkit the application was developed with. That is not a bad thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't URL bar dropdown in Firefox ugly oxygen grey?

You are wrong. I don't know where you got such an idea. I have been using firefox under KDE for close to a decade and the url bar dropdown has never been grey.

Yup, it doesn't.

Right, of course, because if you personally haven't had a problem, then by definition nobody possibly could have, and me and all the other people who have had problems must have been hallucinating or something.

More effort but over long period of time OR missing mails and chat messages.

So in other words you don't want to disable notifications in general, you only want to disable some notifications. Seriously, which applications are actually, in practice, producing notifications that you don't want?

just to witness how search is completely broken again.

Search is NOT broken. As far as anyone has been able to tell it is working fine for pretty much everyone. There was one bug, it slowed down for a while if you try to blacklist your home directory after indexing was done, and that was fixed by the next monthly release, which compared to something like tracker trying to index the entire network seems pretty minor.

[gens]

So "UI research with real experts" is great, unless you personally don't like it, then they must have done a bad job. Because of course you, who is not an expert and has done no research whatsoever, couldn't possibly have wrong ideas about usability. But of course all those people who complain about Gnome usability are just idiots, since Gnome has done "UI research with real experts". There is a word for that: hypocrisy.

A foolish faith in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.

        — Einstein

also
"The GNOME Shell design also started to grapple with the challenges presented by modern computer hardware. Producing a desktop which would be well suited to netbook screens was a key concern. Touch input was another target, and the GNOME 3 design evolved so that it would be as ready to make the leap to touch screen devices. The GNOME 3 desktop was designed so that it would be usable and recognisable across a whole range of computing devices."
from https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointZero/DesignHistory
there is no mention of a mouse anywhere

stop insulting

[daedaluz]

So "UI research with real experts" is great, unless you personally don't like it, then they must have done a bad job. Because of course you, who is not an expert and has done no research whatsoever, couldn't possibly have wrong ideas about usability. But of course all those people who complain about Gnome usability are just idiots, since Gnome has done "UI research with real experts". There is a word for that: hypocrisy.

Is that all you have to say on defence of how horrible Kickoff is and how retarded decisions they make like the breadcrumb?

Don't know and don't care. It was enabled automatically when I installed a language that uses input methods. I think it is built-in as long as KDE is built with input method support. I don't need to know or care what backend were being used (although I think you are able to switch backends if you really want to).

It is not. KDE by default doesn't support any IME's. They are all external components.

KDE devs want their users to have a good experience no matter what DE their application is run under or what toolkit the application was developed with. That is not a bad thing.

It is when it breaks things.

You are wrong. I don't know where you got such an idea. I have been using firefox under KDE for close to a decade and the url bar dropdown has never been grey.

From using KDE for years. Searching with keywords "kde grey firefox" might also enlighten you.

Right, of course, because if you personally haven't had a problem, then by definition nobody possibly could have, and me and all the other people who have had problems must have been hallucinating or something.

Did you even look at the screenshot or read what I wrote? Priority of tracker is very low by default. Any IO operation takes priority over it. And I said I too have had problems with it.

So in other words you don't want to disable notifications in general, you only want to disable some notifications. Seriously, which applications are actually, in practice, producing notifications that you don't want?

Yes, that is exactly what I wrote in the first place.

Search is NOT broken. As far as anyone has been able to tell it is working fine for pretty much everyone. There was one bug, it slowed down for a while if you try to blacklist your home directory after indexing was done, and that was fixed by the next monthly release, which compared to something like tracker trying to index the entire network seems pretty minor.

It is broken. If you don't trust me, search the webs to see others complain. Haven't heard of that serious tracker bug until now. Link? Seems really weird considering these are default indexing locations. I seriously don't understand why KDE devs just don't give up and implement tracker, as it is desktop independent, works, is derived from Nepomuk and has redhat backing it. Nooo they had to go with largerly untested Baloo...

KDE users seem to have this strong Works For Me? mindset. Well, I'm glad it works for you. What distro are you on? During my KDE days I was using openSUSE, ditched it for good due KDE frustration and final straw was when some egghead decided users connecting to wlan need to enter root password every time which was unfixable due some PolicyKit mess. Hell, they even defended it as "sane security practice".

[doom_Oo7]

KDE users seem to have this strong Works For Me? mindset. Well, I'm glad it works for you. What distro are you on? During my KDE days I was using openSUSE, ditched it for good due KDE frustration and final straw was when some egghead decided users connecting to wlan need to enter root password every time which was unfixable due some PolicyKit mess. Hell, they even defended it as "sane security practice".

Maybe it was unfixable, which was a bug, however it IS a sane security practice to NOT leave the choice of the wireless network to the people in front of the workstation in a company (which is what is targeted by SUSE).
Of course it would be stupid in Ubuntu which is targeted towards desktop usage.

[TheBlackCat]

Is that all you have to say on defence of how horrible Kickoff is and how retarded decisions they make like the breadcrumb?

Nice dodge there. So is "UI research with real experts" a good thing or a bad thing?

It is not. KDE by default doesn't support any IME's. They are all external components.

Seems you are right, it is provided by fcitx. Nevertheless, it does do all the things you said it cannot do.

From using KDE for years. Searching with keywords "kde grey firefox" might also enlighten you.

Did you try the search? From the first two pages, most of the results are themes. The only examples of actual bugs I could find is one case where a distro built "firefox" to not identify itself as "firefox" (which was fixed quickly), and the other was from a broken java version freezing firefox and had nothing to do with KDE at all.

Did you even look at the screenshot or read what I wrote? Priority of tracker is very low by default. Any IO operation takes priority over it.

That is great in theory, but that doesn't change what happened to me and many other people.

Yes, that is exactly what I wrote in the first place.

You didn't answer my question. Which applications are causing you problems?

It is broken. If you don't trust me, search the webs to see others complain.

It looks like there were three main problems: ubuntu using a non-default scheduler, really huge text files (fixed), and the bug I already mentioned about the cleaner (fixed). That is far from "broken". Yes, there were performance issues. One was outside of KDE's (and Gnome's) control, the rest were fixed. Note that the the scheduler one is based on the priority, which is exactly the same reason you gave why tracker couldn't possibly be causing the problems it is causing.

Years later, the bug reports about tracker performance are still open.

Haven't heard of that serious tracker bug until now. Link?

Try searching "gnome tracker cpu"

I seriously don't understand why KDE devs just don't give up and implement tracker, as it is desktop independent, works, is derived from Nepomuk and has redhat backing it.

"desktop independent"? Are you kidding? It depends on, amongst other things, gobject, gio and gdk. There is no sane way to define that as "desktop independent", unless you define "uses Gnome technologies" as "desktop independent" (which some people do).

As for why they didn't go with tracker, the reason is that, being based on RDF, it has fundamental issues that are impossible to work around. The reason they abandoned Nepomuk was primarily because RDF-based storage has inherent problems, switching to tracker would still have left them with most of the problems they created Baloo to fix in the first place. It also is extremely limited in its capabilities compared to both KDE's implementation of Nepomuk and Baloo. It is basically just a file indexer, while both KDE's Nepomuk and Baloo are much more.

KDE users seem to have this strong Works For Me? mindset.

Which is exactly what you said about tracker.

During my KDE days I was using openSUSE, ditched it for good due KDE frustration and final straw was when some egghead decided users connecting to wlan need to enter root password every time which was unfixable due some PolicyKit mess. Hell, they even defended it as "sane security practice".

Which was a problem introduced by NetworkManager, a primarily Gnome project.

[daedaluz]

Nice dodge there. So is "UI research with real experts" a good thing or a bad thing?

*sigh* It is you who are dodging. Just look at the context of that thing you are so happy to quote. Stop playing stupid.

Seems you are right, it is provided by fcitx. Nevertheless, it does do all the things you said it cannot do.

It doesn't do them well and it doesn't integrate well. Like I said earlier ITT it behaves differently depending on if application is Qt or something else. You can't deny that.

Did you try the search? From the first two pages, most of the results are themes. The only examples of actual bugs I could find is one case where a distro built "firefox" to not identify itself as "firefox" (which was fixed quickly), and the other was from a broken java version freezing firefox and had nothing to do with KDE at all.

*sigh* Thing is, it doesn't work uniformly. You can't deny that.

That is great in theory, but that doesn't change what happened to me and many other people.

*sigh* Thing is search in KDE has been persistently problematic. You can't deny that either.

You didn't answer my question. Which applications are causing you problems?

Why do you even care? That is irrelevant. Point was that configuring application notifications is tedious compared to GNOME. You can't possibly deny that.

It looks like there were three main problems: ubuntu using a non-default scheduler, really huge text files (fixed), and the bug I already mentioned about the cleaner (fixed). That is far from "broken". Yes, there were performance issues. One was outside of KDE's (and Gnome's) control, the rest were fixed. Note that the the scheduler one is based on the priority, which is exactly the same reason you gave why tracker couldn't possibly be causing the problems it is causing.

Okay, so it was broken and still partially is due shoving square pegs in round holes (that scheduler). And it *is* broken for crapping itself over other schedulers.

Try searching "gnome tracker cpu"

Oh that one. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=747689 Shared /home is tricky, system does not make difference between if it is mounted locally or shared network device, and people not running GNOME so they could disable indexing easily but who get tracker as dependency are indeed in trouble in that case. It doesn't mean that tracker starts mindlessly indexing every single samba, ftp or ssh share the second you are connected like your FUD led me to understand.

"desktop independent"? Are you kidding? It depends on, amongst other things, gobject, gio and gdk. There is no sane way to define that as "desktop independent", unless you define "uses Gnome technologies" as "desktop independent" (which some people do).

This straight from source readme:
* Desktop-neutral design (it's a freedesktop product built
around other freedesktop technologies like D-Bus and XDGMime
but contains no GNOME-specific dependencies besides GLib).
Just stop with your constant bullshit.

As for why they didn't go with tracker, the reason is that, being based on RDF, it has fundamental issues that are impossible to work around. The reason they abandoned Nepomuk was primarily because RDF-based storage has inherent problems, switching to tracker would still have lunderstandingeft them with most of the problems they created Baloo to fix in the first place. It also is extremely limited in its capabilities compared to both KDE's implementation of Nepomuk and Baloo. It is basically just a file indexer, while both KDE's Nepomuk and Baloo are much more.

Just stop already. How do you think GNOME search is able to differentiate between types of files among other things if not semantics? It is not "just a file indexer". Again from source readme...
2 Use Cases
Tracker is the most powerful open source metadata database and
indexer framework currently available and because it is built
around a combination indexer and SQL database and not a
dedicated indexer, it has much more powerful use cases:
* Provide search and indexing facilities similar to those on
other systems (Windows Vista and Mac OS X).
* Common database storage for all first class objects (e.g. a
common music/photo/contacts/email/bookmarks/history database)
complete with additional metadata and tags/keywords.
* Comprehensive one stop solution for all applications needing
an object database, powerful search (via RDF Query), first class
methods, related metadata and user-definable metadata/tags.
* Can provide a full semantic desktop with metadata everywhere.
* Can provide powerful criteria-based searching suitable for
creating smart file dialogs and vfolder systems.
* Can provide a more intelligent desktop using statistical
metadata.

Which was a problem introduced by NetworkManager, a primarily Gnome project.

It was a conscious decision by openSUSE developers.

I'm done talking with you. This leads nowhere. You don't know anything and never admit to being wrong. This is like arguing with religious fanatic. Utterly pointless.

[grndzro]

The bottom line is people are not choosing Gnome 3.
9 out of 10 people pick something other than Gnome 3.

http://fossforce.com/2014/02/kde-tops-desktop-poll/

No matter what or how hard you argue people do not like it.
Gnome 2 had most of the market. People jumped ship when Gnome 3 came out.
Hell even Cinnamon and MATE are overtaking Gnome 3.

Torvaldis has quoted for Gnome 3 "total user experience design failure"
So "Experts" designed G3 and people don't like it. That makes them terrible experts.

Gnome 3 is a failure of Unity like proportions.

[finalzone]

The bottom line is people are not choosing Gnome 3.
9 out of 10 people pick something other than Gnome 3.
http://fossforce.com/2014/02/kde-tops-desktop-poll/.

From the author in the same posted link

That?s why we always try to stress that these polls are highly unscientific. In this case, the poll appeared in an article that was very positive about KDE, and several KDE sites linked to the article. Therefore, a very large percentage of the people who saw the poll would be KDE users. Also, the fact that we only listed KDE, GNOME 3 and Cinnamon and made all other desktops ?other? write-in candidates doubtlessly hurt them as well.

The rest of the comments are already invalid considering the fact Linus Tovarlds actually use Gnome Shell: http://www.zdnet.com/linus-torvalds-...op-7000012083/ since the extensions allowing to mimics legacy Gnome 2 resulting Gnome Classic around Gnome 3.8 covered most of his complaints.

[grndzro]

From the author in the same posted link

The rest of the comments are already invalid considering the fact Linus Tovarlds actually use Gnome Shell: http://www.zdnet.com/linus-torvalds-...op-7000012083/ since the extensions allowing to mimics legacy Gnome 2 resulting Gnome Classic around Gnome 3.8 covered most of his complaints.

So most users need extensions that mimic Gnome 2 for Gnome 3.
I don't call that a win for Gnome 3. Especially when Gnome 3.6 is still on the wrong track.

[finalzone]

So most users need extensions that mimic Gnome 2 for Gnome 3.
I don't call that a win for Gnome 3. Especially when Gnome 3.6 is still on the wrong track.

It is a win because extensions display the flexibility of Gnome Shell. The incoming Red Hat Enterprise 7 uses that example.
It appears your information is out of date considering Gnome has reached 3.12 and most distributions already runs on 3.10.