The GNOME Foundation Is Running Short On Money

[Vim_User]

And how, exactly, is encouraging as many developers as possible to contribute "not connected with primary mission" [sic]? If there is a big pool of talented developers that aren't contributing because people have convinced them they aren't welcome, how is it not in the best interests of Gnome (or any other free software community) to rectify that?

Indeed, it si connected to the primary mission, but it is still not the primary mission, it is a secondary mission to help bringing the primary mission further. Problems begin when those secondary missions drain so much resources that following the primary mission becomes impossible, for example if the Gnome Foundation runs out of money. In that case those secondary missions have to be paused or even discarded until the primary mission is no longer in danger.

GNOME is lightyears ahead competition when it comes to keyboard-only navigation.

Sorry, but no:
1. Any of the tiling WMs will blow Gnome out of the water when it comes to working with the keyboard.
2. Where is the competition? I can't see any of the Gnome Developers actively work to be better than KDE or XFCE (some of them don't even know what XFCE is), they are just following their vision.

[gens]

And this one example takes away all the experiences of other people who have been discriminated against, right?

Oh, of course, if one person hasn't had a problem, that means nobody does and we can just ignore it. You apply this sort of logic to a lot of things, don't you?

Also, there is a difference between "one huge IT company", which tend to have pretty strict sexual harassment policies, compared to an open community composed mostly of volunteers. Also, you might want to ask if this company is an equal-opportunity employer.

has either one of you two actually openly talked to a girl about this topic ? (a down to earth girl, that is)
and since this seems to happen frequently around you, did you complain or knocked the guy's nose in or something ?

problem of discrimination based on gender (or nationality, race etc. for that matter) is a social one
of the whole society, not just IT
in most, if not all, countries discrimination is punishable by law
and no IT company wants that black mark, especially since their whole business is based on reputation

i'm not saying that it does not happen, that would be dumb to say that
but it is something that needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis
not by spreading something like that all male IT people are sexists

to be more real
take software engineering for example
there are way less women going to school for it
are you going to hire a woman because she is a woman or because she can code better then the other candidates
or to be less politically correct; are you going to hire a woman when there is a male candidate that codes better
(and since there are more men the chances are higher ofc)


on the topic of sexual harassment
sexual harassment is a very serious accusation and very much a police thing
it's not something you trow around when you want to accomplish some goal

if i remember correctly; in croatia rape, that has been mentioned, is more severely punished then murder


you also can not say that men do not get discriminated or sexually harassed


anyway...
the topic, and what is bothering the gnome people, was the percentage of women in IT
the Ada foundation, that i pointed out couple pages before, is dealing with real problems
(i personally would very much like more girls that can code; on the other side there isn't many women working in construction so.. yay equality)


and if any woman is reading this thread, that i hope none is

if you get discriminated complain to your boss
if he is the one doing it or does not care, complain to hes boss
if that way does not bare fruit, go to court
but then make sure you have physical evidence, as word vs word well...

and if you get harassed and the asshole won't stop when you tell him, remember
knee to the balls and if you can't run then (or don't want to), again and again and again (as a man i can say it hurts just to write this)


while i'm typing this much a word on equality
in the world..
there are men idiots
there are girl idiots
there are british idiots
there are black idiots
there are norwegian idiots
there are chinese idiots
there are even bushman idiots
(the blue man group is awesome thou)
no matter skin color, place of birth nor gender we are all the same

[RahulSundaram]

has either one of you two actually openly talked to a girl about this topic ? (a down to earth girl, that is)
and since this seems to happen frequently around you, did you complain or knocked the guy's nose in or something ?

I don't know about "girls" but I have certainly talked to women in I.T and discrimation against women happens a lot more than men and that is just a fact and there are thousands of articles and studies documenting many such instances. Just in case, you weren't aware

https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/

Discrimination isn't always about sexual harrasement (ex: refusing to hire well qualified people based on gender) and the answer to violence isn't more violence. There are systematic problems with the society we live in and gender based discrimation is one of them and no matter how much one wishes otherwise, noone is helping the situation by being ignorant about it, deliberately or otherwise.

Pretending that everything is equal and there is no need to consider gender issues is a naive approach towards solving real problems. Yes, there is a difference in the level of interest and participation between men and women but women who do want to participate are not being given equal opportunity due to all sorts of discrimination including but not limited to sexual violence, sexism, harrasement in the work place, gender based hiring and more. This isn't just about gender but also includes race and other ways that we are labeling and isolating some groups but open source world is really doing much worse than I.T industry in general and there is a real need for more visibility and balance. The first step would be ack that there is a problem.

[quasipedia]

[...one page later...] ...Let me tell you something, if software development or any other technical and natural science field for that matter would be led like social science, it would and will be chaos.

Man... you should really get out more!

Besides, you should also take a look in the mirror and see if you can see why you are part of the problem you claim is not existing.

[TheBlackCat]

problem of discrimination based on gender (or nationality, race etc. for that matter) is a social one
of the whole society, not just IT
in most, if not all, countries discrimination is punishable by law
and no IT company wants that black mark, especially since their whole business is based on reputation

First, I already pointed this out. But as I also pointed out:

1. There is more to sexism than blatant sexual harassment. A lot of it is subconcious, and a lot of it is hard to prove on a case-by-case basis, but comes out clearly when looking at averages.
2. open-source communities are not big companies, they don't have to follow the same rules, and when attempts have been made to enforce similar rules, people like you and fanAtic fight long and hard against it.

not by spreading something like that all male IT people are sexists

Complete and utter strawman. Please provide any post by anyone in this thread claiming anything remotely similar to this. It is nothing but blatant dishonesty to present this as even remotely relevant to the current discussion.

are you going to hire a woman because she is a woman or because she can code better then the other candidates
or to be less politically correct; are you going to hire a woman when there is a male candidate that codes better
(and since there are more men the chances are higher ofc)

Another blatant strawman. The fact the matter is that, all things being equal, on average women are rated lower than their male counterparts, are less likely to get promotions, are paid less, and are less likely to get speaking positions. This is after taking into account their lower numbers.

on the topic of sexual harassment
sexual harassment is a very serious accusation and very much a police thing
it's not something you trow around when you want to accomplish some goal

Utter baloney. There are different levels of sexual harassment. There are levels of sexual harassment that are outright criminal, but many employers also punish lower levels of sexual harassment that aren't outright criminal but still make the workplace unwelcoming to women.

you also can not say that men do not get discriminated or sexually harassed

Women face it far, far, far more than men by any measure. There is simply no comparison.

if you get discriminated complain to your boss
if he is the one doing it or does not care, complain to hes boss
if that way does not bare fruit, go to court

And you have a very good chance of never working in your field again.

but then make sure you have physical evidence, as word vs word well...

Yeah, good luck with that when all the leadership in your company has the same mindset as the harasser, or wants to avoid the "black mark" you spoke up.

and if you get harassed and the asshole won't stop when you tell him, remember
knee to the balls and if you can't run then (or don't want to), again and again and again (as a man i can say it hurts just to write this)

Then she goes to jail and he gets to continue tormenting other women.

If you aren't a lawyer, please don't prove people this sort of advice. It is simply irresponsible, and sometimes illegal.

[fanATic]

Next time, actually try reading my post instead of responding to some imaginary post I didn't make. I provided specific examples of real, verified problems. You just completely ignored them, then posted more of your fantasy that is directly contradicted by the facts. You simply have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about. In the real world, as I already showed, the opprtunities simply are not equal, and to pretend otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.

In USA there are laws which prohibit discrimination on any basis so don't play victim card.

A lack of diversity means fewer ideas, perspectives and pushback that come with a varied and eclectic group of folks at the table.

True, Japan and Korea lack diversity, also China and India but they don't lack of ideas and technological advancements.

In the end, no matter how much you scream about equality

I don't scream about equality, you are. Only what matter is equal oportunity anything else is (communist, among other things) utopia.

in the end you always admit that you simply think women are inherently inferior in whatever subject you are talking about

Where I said that women are inferior? There are fields where are men more represented than women and vice versa. Trying to apply social engineering will only make things worse. But I support that, as soon this idiocracy take its toll the faster will people realise their stupidity.

Speaking of subject, why are so few female chess grandmasters? Why there is no equality among male and female chess players? Why male and female chess players don't have chess tournaments among themselves instead separation?
Are male chess players "privileged"?

But thanks for proving that you are part of the problem.

Don't play this game, instilling guilt and manufacturing consent.

[TheBlackCat]

In USA there are laws which prohibit discrimination on any basis so don't play victim card.

You make it abundantly clear you have no intention whatsoever to actually address the real, proven problems I brought up, and will just continue to pretend they don't exist. There is no point talking to you if your only response to issues is to ignore them and attempt to distract attentions away from them.

[doom_Oo7]

You make it abundantly clear you have no intention whatsoever to actually address the real, proven problems I brought up, and will just continue to pretend they don't exist.

The thing is, you can change (and apply) laws but you can't change people... It's the same with racism, etc.

For instance, in France, death sentence was abolished about 40 years ago, however still today people say that it should come back. You can't change'em (and they will always exist, and in everybody there is a little part which is reluctant to change, or to "the other").

[fanATic]

1. Any of the tiling WMs will blow Gnome out of the water when it comes to working with the keyboard.

Btw., KDE 4 have tiling feature, even Windows until 7 have had tiling feature but not so elegant (right mouse click, select) like is in KDE 4, not to mention specialized tiling WM's.

Just in case, you weren't aware

https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/

They behave like big kids with lack of social skills and human interactions, it's easy to explain from sociopsychological point of view.

and when attempts have been made to enforce similar rules, people like you and fanAtic fight long and hard against it.

Let the force be with you, but be careful young Padawan that force don't bite you back. I am for meritocracy and equal opportunities, against privileges of any kind and feminist social engineering enforced by government.

on average women are rated lower than their male counterparts, are less likely to get promotions, are paid less, and are less likely to get speaking positions

Than how Marissa Mayer get CEO position if there is "male privilege" and "patriarchy"? Carly Fiorina was CEO of hp etc.

and are less likely to get speaking positions

If there is one field where females surpass males, it is verbal skills.

Man... you should really get out more!

Besides, you should also take a look in the mirror and see if you can see why you are part of the problem you claim is not existing.

Almost ad hominem. I am not part of the problem because there is no problem in western world, you and others like you e.g. TheBlackCat are making problem where it doesn't exist, but it fits in category of "First World Problems".

[fanATic]

You make it abundantly clear you have no intention whatsoever to actually address the real, proven problems I brought up, and will just continue to pretend they don't exist. There is no point talking to you if your only response to issues is to ignore them and attempt to distract attentions away from them.

First World Problems.