Outreachy Developers Have Been Making Some Useful Contributions To The Linux Kernel

[Britoid]

It's really not. You obviously haven't grown up in a particularly diverse environment. It's human instinct to fear the unknown. In the case of racism it's usually fear of those who don't look like you or behave significantly different from what you think is appropriate.

The way to change that is to expose yourself to different people and opinions. Over time you become more accepting of those different people and opinions, but if a green alien speaking gerbaflobb walks in through the door you're right back at fearing the unknown.

Any living organism with a reasonably strong desire of self preservation will show the same behavior. Why do you think cave men are depicted as fearful of everything? Hint: because it resonates with our basic instincts. It subconsciously tells us their world is smaller than ours.

I grew up in a rural area and the school I went to had no one who could be considered an ethnic minority. I don't have a racist bone in my body and neither do any of my friends from what I'm aware.

Not that I disagree with you, but it's not always the case that growing up with a lack of diversity = creates racism.

[schmidtbag]

It's really not. You obviously haven't grown up in a particularly diverse environment. It's human instinct to fear the unknown. In the case of racism it's usually fear of those who don't look like you or behave significantly different from what you think is appropriate.

What exactly are you basing this on? From what I've seen, it's the opposite - people who are surrounded too much by their own kind tend to be the least accepting of those who are different.
I went to a college where I (a white male) was the minority. It was one of the most pleasant experiences I had, because nobody acted like they were better than anyone else and everyone got along regardless of what you looked like.
Put children with a mixed-race upbringing and most of them legitimately don't understand racism, at all. If they witness a racist event, they question why the two people are being mean to each other rather than make the connection that they just simply look different.

The way to change that is to expose yourself to different people and opinions. Over time you become more accepting of those different people and opinions, but if a green alien speaking gerbaflobb walks in through the door you're right back at fearing the unknown.

Right... and your point is?
A lot of the western world will deny certain races, women, or people of certain sexual orientations in STEM fields simply because there aren't that much, and they hold onto prejudices. So, it's kinda hard to get exposure when so much of your industry turns you down. So, that's kinda the point of Outreachy: so these people get a chance to build up their resume and show that they're just as capable.

Any living organism with a reasonably strong desire of self preservation will show the same behavior. Why do you think cave men are depicted as fearful of everything? Hint: because it resonates with our basic instincts. It subconsciously tells us their world is smaller than ours.

Actually, most living organisms have a strong desire for genetic diversity, because being too genetically similar makes you vulnerable to certain diseases (or causes genetic deformities if you're TOO similar).
What most living things try to preserve is strength and health. Looking different doesn't mean a damn thing to most animals. For example, it's pretty common for dogs of very different breeds to voluntarily hump each other after meeting for just a few minutes. But... if one of the dogs has a nasty rash, matted fur, and a limp leg, there's a good chance it isn't going to "get lucky" because the dog is visibly unhealthy and doesn't show promise in offspring. Animals only care if something looks different if that difference is a sign of poor health or a detrimental mutation. If everything you've been saying was true, dogs of different breeds wouldn't be so "open minded".

Meanwhile, watch documentaries involving white people coming into contact with isolated tribes throughout Africa. Of course, they're scared at first, because they've never seen a white person before, let alone the tools or clothes he/she may have arrived with. It's natural to fear the unknown. But, the hate is a conscious decision. After the visitor shows they mean no harm, the tribe grows interested, and even excited. They're still on-edge, but they're friendly.

So I stand by my point: racism is only taught. There are studies upon studies (and just real-world examples you can find all over the internet) that confirm this.

[onicsis]

CIS male, patriarchism, trans feminine, racism, feminism, whatever ... only people in developed countries bother with this bunch of terms.
The rest of the world barely understand the true meaning of those words, what they really mean. They have more important thing better to do in life, not digesting nonsense. And certainly they don't anyone to "enlighten" them.

[tomas]

So he's not allowed to have an opinion on how people look? I personally don't give a crap but there a lots of people who take great pride in how they look and use it to boost their confidence. Do you really want to take that away from them?

When did I ever say that? I wanted to know in what way he thought it relevant for the discussion about women in STEM. For me it sounded completely off topic, like he would have added "oh yeah, by the way, I like hot dogs with mashed potatoes". So I was genuinely curious what the connection between the perceived looks of women and their representation in STEM might be.

I'd say it is indeed relevant to the discussion because there are only so much time in a day, and if they spend hours to make themselves look good then that time has to come out of something else. Maybe they take it out of studying, maybe they take it out of making friends. Maybe those biology students became inspired to pursue those careers because of how much they are about their bodies.

Well that was an interesting theory, I'll give you that at least :-)

Whatever the point was isn't for me to answer, but to blatantly say it's irrelevant like that (with whatever implications you intended) without giving it a second thought is borderline dishonest.

Calm down. The question was not even directed at you so I don't get why you're so upset.

[starshipeleven]

In what way is any of the above relevant to the discussion at hand?

If you mean the bold parts, it's just to show that there is also a definite correlation between being a ugly female and doing what is commonly perceived as a "man job".

[moilami]

No. I don't want code which is made by discriminating organizations. You can keep that code where the sun does not shine.

[starshipeleven]

it's funny you mention medical doctors because that's a recent phenomenon. The vast majority of physicians are men

US statistics don't apply to my country.
I suggest to look at global statistics if you want to avoid skewing your results.

Can your theory explain why the rate of women going into computer science dropped drastically (by over half since the 1980s)? Your model needs to explain why computer science rates were on the rise up until the 1980s and then went into a steady decline.

No my model only needs to explain the local situation I lived in. I can assure you that in my country there was exactly 0 women in computer science up to late 90s.

Your data only explains a specific situation that happened in the US, which didn't happen outside of it.

Did all women up until the 1980s think computer science jobs were fine if they wanted a family and then all of sudden not?

Maybe work conditions changed? I'm not an expert in US labor laws and statistics, but I'd check that.

Why is it even worse for women of color? If you don't use any socio-economic analysis you leave these questions unanswered.

Pulling a simple one-line theory out of their ass and claiming it was the reason is not "socio-economic analysis".

You would also need to explain why in India they have much higher percentage of women in computer science despite having a culture with more emphasis on family compared to the United States.

More emphasis on oppressing and infanticiding women you mean. That's not "family", that's "female enslavement to the man".

India has two main parts, the rural area that is a shithole where women are cattle, and a more city-based one where people have somewhat more modern ideas but it's still mostly a shithole by western standards. It's improving well enough, but it's still a bad place.

From what I see, going into studies is seen as a way to emancipate themselves from the shithole woman-busting culture because now you are no more just a woman but a highly trained professional.

Somewhat similar to the situation depicted by the eastern-european guy about what women did in soviet times vs now.

Ah yes, also the "parents didn't buy them a PC" does not apply to indian girls either.

I'm not saying that the introduction of the personal computer into the home of Americans is the sole reason why there are very few women in computer science. It's a very complicated sociological question and there are many factors

Ah now you say it. What about not linking to random bullshit articles then?

when Outreachy is doing something that results in patches that wouldn't have existed otherwise, I see that as a win

I don't.
They do their part in propagating the bullshit culture of entitlement because of race or gender, which is discrimination, they are not solving the problem. They ARE the problem.

I don't give a shit about minor contributions, it is much less than the damage they are doing.

This culture is keeping significant resources tied into childish bs instead of actually working together as a single species, and not just on opensource.

[starshipeleven]

Outreachy gives victims of discrimination an opportunity to be that proof.

Lol, a proof that said minority need external help to perform as well as a straight white male (the superior master race, apparently)?

Because I'm pretty good at racism, and I'm going to tell you that it's exacly how a racist would see that.

[starshipeleven]

It's really not. You obviously haven't grown up in a particularly diverse environment. It's human instinct to fear the unknown. In the case of racism it's usually fear of those who don't look like you or behave significantly different from what you think is appropriate.

No they are reactions to the fear of the unknown.

racism is a philosophical concept where you think that your race is better than others.
Sexism is the same but with gender.

the fear of the unknown (of the "different") is xenofobia and is the instinct of fearing anything that is not the same as you, not necessarily people.

Note that fearing the different isn't the same as thinking you are superior.

Humans have this curious need to explain things to themselves to calm their emotions, and finding ways to tell yourself that you are superior is a very good way of reassuring you that there is no threat, or that you are better.

The part where "being taught" matters is that how you react to fear is a taught skill, you can teach people into not telling themselves bullshit theories like racism and sexism just because that reassures them.

Just as you can teach how to suppress or redirect homicidal instincts that will happen when someone is angry. We are still an apex predator, fighting and killing is still very much a strong instinctual reaction to a threat for many people.

Humans were not "tamed" at a genetic level like say wolves that have much shorter lifespan and were selectively bred for fucking millenia into becoming derpy beings like some dog breeds (say Labradors).

The way to change that is to expose yourself to different people and opinions. Over time you become more accepting of those different people and opinions,

This is how it works with smart animals like for example horses or dogs. You can't teach them how to rationalize their fear because they are uncapable to rationalize anything, so you can only expose them to something until they don't see it as new or strange anymore.

Humans can do better.

if a green alien speaking gerbaflobb walks in through the door you're right back at fearing the unknown.

It depends from how much you were taught how to deal with your instincts.

Some will freak out and pee all over the place, some will actually go beyond first impression and try to understand if it is a threat or not, and react accordingly.

[ssokolow]

Yes and I also agree that there are definitely social pressure problems when it comes to girls in STEM (or boys in some girl dominated areas as well). These should be eliminated of course. But there are also very interesting studies indicating biological difference stemming (pun intended) from testosterone levels when it comes to cognitive functionality and biases.

The results seemed to indicate that boys (with normal testosterone levels) tend to be more analytical and less social, while girls (with normal testosterone levels) tend to be more social and less analytical in their thinking. I think I agree with this. NOTE: this statement is made as in "on average" btw. and also "less analytical" doesn't imply any kind of disability or "less of a human being" here. The main takeaway I think is that there are biological differences to the sexes mostly due to hormones and other biological functions and it'd be very naive to try and fight those.

Creating equal opportunities and making the playing field fair, yes 100%. Trying for equality of outcome, no, not ever.

No argument there... but, as a species, our desire for simple answers to complex problems has produced a history of mistaking symptoms for causes and/or prematurely concluding that we've identified all the causes for something, so I prefer to be very wary of accepting whichever answers can easily lead to a conclusion that there's nothing more to be uncovered.