Adam Jackson On The State Of The X.Org Server In 2020

[Old Grouch]

wayland is x window system version 12^{[citation needed]} and if you start with arbitrary claims you could reach arbitrary conclusions

'Premise A AND Premise B' is only true if both Premise A and Premise B are true.

[pal666]

If Wayland is a better answer than the X Window System, and there is a large amount of valid criticism of Wayland

wayland is x window system version 12 and if you start with arbitrary claims you could reach arbitrary conclusions

[pal666]

I highly doubt that a significant amount of people is using wayland already.

several people at my home are using wayland without knowing what it is. it just works

I didn't say I have issues with kde, I said you can switch to wayland easily with kde. Certain applications (not kde) have issues when using wayland.

when using broken kde wayland implementation

[pal666]

The fact that X11 eventually consolidated to a single strong implementation is the point here, so we are now repeating 30 years of bad history?

don't cry, wayland will also consolidate to gnome

KMS/ DRM and GBM is the wrong abstraction to use because its Linux specific and low level, thats the whole problem and thats the duplication that is being talked about. None of the desktop compositors should even be talking to KMS/DRM and GBM.

gbm is mesa specific. i hear nvidiot talk

I don't know if you realize but there are other OS's out there that aren't Linux that would want to use Wayland, i.e. BSD's (and maybe ReactOS if it ever picks up). This means that Gnome/KDE etc etc have to create platform specific implementations for those OS's if they decide to use Wayland.

since they are using linux videodrivers and mesa, they'll be fine with gbm. and btw, why we should use novideo-specific api instead? because novideo wants to turn it into standard? feel free to turn gbm into standard.

Ontop of this, even if we get your mentioned workarounds working for Wayland, there are compositors out there like Sway which won't work by default if you have the blob installed (regardless if you are even using NVidia for compositing/rendering, i.e. Sway will fail to run if you are only using the blob for CUDA).

don't install blobs or learn to use containers for proprietary shit

So as you stated before, this approach also doesn't work with out of kernel drivers that don't use KMS/DRM/GBM without significant hacks (none of which work right now) and this is regardless of your philosophical views on the subject.

it's self-inflicted pain. move your shitty driver into kernel and use kms/drm/gbm

This kind of shit shouldn't even be handled by the compositor, you even admitted yourself its compositor specific. Right now Steam VR works with X11 fine

right now keyloggers work with x11 fine

Its going to be bloody retarded using Steam VR with Wayland if your specific compositor happened to implement it incorrectly.

just as you learned to use one best x11 implementation, you'll learn to use best wayland implementation

Every compositor doing their own window management work is fine because it actually does differ, i.e. managing windows in a tiling WM is different to a traditional one like KWin, so by definition its not really duplication.

I am talking about the duplication of talking to GBM/DRM/KMS which really is duplication if you have a look at the relevant code in the different compositors.

you can talk to it very differently, different projects do things differently with different results, just like with window managing. and you completely ignored example of different x11 servers

Uh, this is fuken so wrong. Usage of Wayland is ~7% from what I last checked

how did you measure that?

, in reality almost no one uses wayland

in reality almost no one changes defaults and default is wayland

(and literally anyone with a newer NVidia GPU doesn't use Wayland because of the large amount of bugs there).

again in reality outside of imaginary worlds of nvidiots novideo gpu users are minority. (in case it's not clear, there are more amd gpu users than novideo gpu users and there are more intel gpu users than novideo gpu users)

Almost every major distro out there with significant market share (ergo Ubuntu but also OpenSuse/Manjaro) default to X11.

ubuntu had wayland default already and will have it again

If everyone used Wayland we wouldn't be even having this discussion.

if that were true we wouldn't be having systemd discussions

[Azrael5]

Is there a list of native Wayland apps and desktop environment?

[pal666]

So who wants to run untrusted binaries on their system in the first place?

everyone running proprietary apps?

[pal666]

Err.. nope..

yes. it's default, most people just use defaults

[c117152]

especially when user selected kde with novideo and is blaming wayland for his poor choices

Personally I have sway on one machine and i3 on another (and windows on a third...) so I can't really pick sides

[Old Grouch]

Xwayland is a waste of resource, it's useless and makes Wayland not efficient. It's necessary to develop pure Wayland linux operating systems. Of course, linux developers must rewrite many programs and desktop environment so to purge xorg from linux. Many years have passed since Wayland has been introduced, too much time has been wasted on a graphical stack which the same main contributor has defined deprecated making Linux operating systems like fossils.

XWayland is not useless if it addresses use-cases that are not directly addressed by Wayland per se. You don't persuade people to try something new by telling them what they are used to using every day is useless, as they do not find it so, and you lose credibility.

While you may regard 'the project' to be purging the X Windows System from Linux, the way to do so is to show people how to do the things they say they need using Wayland instead of X; not by being unnecessarily combative. If you are appropriately humble, you might discover previously unrecognised use cases, and participate in developing needed functionality.

The Wayland ecosystem is not finished yet. It never will be. If you help to polish it, more people will be enthused to use it, and become positively engaged. Abusing people is rarely a good method of persuading them to your point of view.

[Azrael5]

O boy how badly wrong you are.

Xwayland is not just another name for X11. Xwayland does not have the X11 compositor extension.

https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.5/doc/compositeproto/compositeproto.txt

What replaces the composite extension in Xwayland its features are not 100 percent gone. That right Wayland protocol is the Xwayland replacement to the composite extension to X11. The composite extension was not designed to take advantage of zero copy buffers or use file handles. So a X11 application running under Xwayland does in fact get advantage from Wayland being there.

Desktop environments have to be redesigned to take advantage of wayland because a X11 extension most of them used once you switch to a full wayland based desktop is no more.

Zero copy buffers of Wayland can mean when X11 application is full screen it gets the advantage performance of enabling executive fullscreen on old X11 solutions without having to specially mode switch the compositor. Yes the X11 protocol design of how to do compositor means the compositor has to get itself out way not just go hey this buffer from the application is full screen GPU I am doing nothing to it the next frame is this buffer. Of course that old X11 protocol requirement that a compositor has to disconnect itself to get out way causes latency and glitches.

Wayland compositor with Xwayland to run X11 applications does in fact make a huge stack of X11 compositor caused bugs to disappear. Yes running X11 server without a compositor causes a huge stack of tearing issues as well.

Xwayland if we can get all gpu vendors to support in fact offers to be faster and more stable than bare metal X11 solutions for running X11 applications.

Like it or not there is benefit to non ported X11 applications to be on Xwayland instead of bare metal X11 applications in performance and stability due to what the wayland protocol is used to replace in Xwayland and the fact the X11 protocol design of those parts is broken..

Xwayland is a waste of resource, it's useless and makes Wayland not efficient. It's necessary to develop pure Wayland linux operating systems. Of course, linux developers must rewrite many programs and desktop environment so to purge xorg from linux. Many years have passed since Wayland has been introduced, too much time has been wasted on a graphical stack which the same main contributor has defined deprecated making Linux operating systems like fossils.