Upstream X/Wayland Developers Bash Canonical, Mir

[XorEaxEax]

It is their company. What their developers do is none of your business.

Funny how those rules didn't apply to you when you complained about systemd. How hypocritical can one get, really?

[ninez]

As far as sound engineers are concerned. They like low latency and that also explains all the jack stuff. So those professionals do use Linux.

While it is true that there are _some_ segments that do (use Jack/linux) whether they realize it or not. (ie: people using certain Modern Harrison Consoles, for example) Gnu/Linux still isn't that popular among musicians/engineers, in studios or any of that Jazz. Gnu/Linux doesn't drive that market, by any stretch of the imagination ~ Apple is the preferred platform and does low latency (with or without Jack, just fine). I've spent time in quite a few different studios over the years and attended a Music and Technology program in College. Most of the time, those types of facilities are Mac-based, with the odd one being Windows-based (or a combo of both). It changes a bit, if you get into film (where Harrison is very popular) but you're going to find very few studios on this planet (ratio-wise) to Mac or Windows based ones. (i would probably guess, less than 1%, if even that).

Most of the places that you see linux being used in the Music industry as specific corner cases, like Harrison (who use jack in some products) or Muse Research (whom don't use Jack in their products). ie: specialized hardware with closed-source applications... Linux(-RT) is used and sure low-latency / realtime is there/important, but i think more to the point they tend to use Linux because it allows them to do things they can't do as easily with say Windows or MacOSX and linux has a smaller footprint - not because Linux has better proaudio applications (it doesn't), more variety (nope) or higher quality (nope)...

...and don't forget about how few proaudio vendors actually support linux (or are even interested in doing so!) and also how hit or miss support is for XYZ quality audio interface, if even supported at all. (ie: there are many audio interface drivers that are buggy + you only get some functionality ~ compared to Mac/Wind drivers). Plus, Low Latency also isn't the only concern (and may not be a concern at all, depending on what you are composing.) - you can have low-latency all you like but if your applications aren't upto snuff, then it doesn't really matter. (and obviously Gnu/Linux is fairly limited in various areas; lack luster soft-synths, for example).

[XyC0]

I think MIR is all about the Ubuntu touch/phone, using Mir with Android drivers they can rather fast get it to work in the mobile/tablet market, but they are probably after unifying the Ubuntu lineup, and they know that the ordinary desktop market is harder to change, so they start pushing MIR on the desktop now and release Ubuntu touch with MIR later this year to make a second push for a unified ubuntu desktop/tablet/phone system, and it is a risk/chance they make it on tablets/phones, but I do not think they make it on the ordinary desktop system.

But that is only my opinion/prediction of the future

[daniels]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. That still does not really substantiate ryao's attempts to paint that as a bad thing. I mean, would you say that Red Hat is using Wayland to enforce it's will on the free software community?

Yeah, I didn't bother replying to those for a reason.

[Hamish Wilson]

Yes, Kristian's initial Wayland development was done while he was still at Red Hat. He's been at Intel working on it full-time for quite some time now.

And, while RH don't contribute directly to Wayland, the fact is we'd be screwed without them. They've made an enormous investment over quite a number of years (since long before it was fashionable) in the entire graphics stack.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. That still does not really substantiate ryao's attempts to paint that as a bad thing. I mean, would you say that Red Hat is using Wayland to enforce it's will on the free software community?

[Wilfred]

[...]While it is true that Ubuntu (or more broadly gnu/linux) can 'out-benchmark' MacOSX in some areas (particularly OpenGL), to say it is way faster, is simply false... in fact, there are many areas where MacOSX destroys gnu/linux for a variety of reasons. Obvious stuff like ease of use/configuration, much higher quality applications (in vastly higher numbers), etc ...but any graphical designer/photographer, sound engineer/musician, video editor, etc used to using MacOSX (with their high-demanding apps) will laugh in your face, when you go on about Ubuntu like this ~ Ubuntu (and linux in general, is YEARS away from being able to compete in these areas). [...]

As far as sound engineers are concerned. They like low latency and that also explains all the jack stuff. So those professionals do use Linux.

[daniels]

I know that Kristian is no longer at Red Hat, but his Wayland proposal for the plumber's conference was published when he was at Red Hat.

Yes, Kristian's initial Wayland development was done while he was still at Red Hat. He's been at Intel working on it full-time for quite some time now.

And, while RH don't contribute directly to Wayland, the fact is we'd be screwed without them. They've made an enormous investment over quite a number of years (since long before it was fashionable) in the entire graphics stack.

[ryao]

It was daniel's who commented that Red Hat had not direct involvement in Wayland though, so I am taking that from him. He should know though.

He would be wrong:

Kristian H?gsberg is working at Red Hat on the Linux graphics stack including drm, mesa, X, cairo and more. The recent couple of years Kristian has been focused on clearing out the roadblocks that prevent us from enabling a composited Linux desktop by default. Towards this goal he has been instrumental in implementing AIGLX, which has allowed compiz and other compositing managers to run on X, and DRI2, which integrates accelerated OpenGL with the COMPOSITE extension. Recent developments in the Linux graphics stack has led Kristian to wonder whether X is our ideal window system.

http://linuxplumbersconf.org/ocw/users/73

I know that Kristian is no longer at Red Hat, but his Wayland proposal for the plumber's conference was published when he was at Red Hat.

[TheBlackCat]

With that said, the idea that Wayland is completely divorced from the RedHat monoculture is absurd when I consider recent comments that have been made by RedHat employees, including those that contribute to Xorg development. If these people had no involvement with Wayland, they would not care enough to make these comments.

Of course they care. Anyone who uses Linux has a reason to care. People aren't allowed to care about things they don't directly develop?

[Hamish Wilson]

I consider the use of software to be taking advantage of it and I consider that to be a good thing. Your claims to the contrary appear to be based on a completely different understanding of English vocabulary.

While I do fully agree that English can be a bloody obtuse son of a bitch, I am pretty sure my understanding to the term is the more general one.

With that said, the idea that Wayland is completely divorced from the RedHat monoculture is absurd when I consider recent comments that have been made by RedHat employees, including those that contribute to Xorg development. If these people had no involvement with Wayland, they would not care enough to make these comments.

Because they are invested in Linux by chance? Just like you and I are? Perhaps even more so because of Red Hat's stronger dependence on a strong upstream Linux community to continue to sell it's products. This is like saying that I as a Canadian had no reason to follow the last results of the US election because they do not directly involve me.

It was daniel's who commented that Red Hat had not direct involvement in Wayland though, so I am taking that from him. He should know though.