Guess what? Yet another disgruntled Fedora+ATI Customer

[m4rgin4l]

how compares fedora's java support to gentoo's? With gentoo I can switch jdks on the fly. java-config and done. Every user can set his java implementation - and there is a different one for the system. And Fedora foremost includes pre-release broken stuff. They used the fedora users as guinea pigs for selinux - so the RHEL users wouldn't complain. They are abusing fedora users alpha-testing known broken kernel features (4k stacks anyone) - again for the benift of the RHEL users.

Are you really comfortable with that?

Yup. I'm quite comfortable. RedHat puts a lot of effort and money to make Linux a kickass OS. I think it's only fair that we give a little back.

Please notice that not only RedHat benefits from the Fedora users, but all the distros. A lot of the reported bugs are fixed upstream and everyone can see what failed with Fedora and not repeat the same mistakes.

[Kano]

Well the view of ATI is just differnet than yours I would like to see more current support of kernels and Xorg versions. But maybe only 1 person is working on it and has got no time for this The poor guy may have to do all alone without any help *g*

[Redeeman]

how compares fedora's java support to gentoo's? With gentoo I can switch jdks on the fly. java-config and done. Every user can set his java implementation - and there is a different one for the system. And Fedora foremost includes pre-release broken stuff. They used the fedora users as guinea pigs for selinux - so the RHEL users wouldn't complain. They are abusing fedora users alpha-testing known broken kernel features (4k stacks anyone) - again for the benift of the RHEL users.

Are you really comfortable with that?

if people dont test stuff it will never be "stable". bugs needs finding, reporting, and fixing. Stuff needs testing, that is the purpose of fedora, and the users know it, and if they dont, they didnt really spend any time making the choice for distribution.

are you saying that kernel.org abuses me when i choose to fetch rc1 and run?

[energyman]

how compares fedora's java support to gentoo's? With gentoo I can switch jdks on the fly. java-config and done. Every user can set his java implementation - and there is a different one for the system. And Fedora foremost includes pre-release broken stuff. They used the fedora users as guinea pigs for selinux - so the RHEL users wouldn't complain. They are abusing fedora users alpha-testing known broken kernel features (4k stacks anyone) - again for the benift of the RHEL users.

Are you really comfortable with that?

[m4rgin4l]

I use Fedora for the following reasons (in the intended order):

* It's one of the few truly free distros.
* They always include the latest of what free software has to offer.
* Amazing support for Java developers.

The thing with including the latest (released or otherwise) versions of the software means that you get to try the newest stuff. Sometimes this work, like with KDE 4.0 that sucked really hard when F9 was released, but now we have KDE 4.1 which is fantastic; but sometimes it doesn't, like with Xorg 7.4.

IMHO including Xorg 7.4 was a mistake. Although there's a lot to gain from it, specially in terms of performance, if you look at the latest news (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=NjYzNw) we're not even sure how the final product is going to look.

But someone has to innovate, and some of us are willing to pitch in by trying the newest stuff and reporting bugs. In the case of Fedora 9, when I still had my NVIDIA card, I could do it since they're drivers worked, with my HD4850, I can't.

As someone answered to me before, the fault in this case is mine. You can't try the latest software with the latest hardware.

Luckily for me the solution is simple and not painful at all: Switching to a supported distro like Ubuntu, and wait it out. I'm sure the card will eventually work with closed-source o open-source drivers and Xorg 7.4.

[panda84]

yes you should blame Fedora!

Xorg 7.4 isn't even released. So it is there fault to include half broken non-releases and turning it users in pre-alpha testers.

And you can't blame AMD for not supporting software that is not even released!

So Fedora fucked up - again.

Indeed, I think we should not blame nor Fedora nor AMD.

Fedora 8 _is still_ actively supported and works with the AMD driver.

Fedora _is_ intended to be fast evolving as one of its stated objectives is the following: ?Fedora is a center for innovation in free and open source software, and creates a community where developers and open source enthusiasts come together to advance free and open source software.?

So Fedora _is not_ intended for the end users. The ~13 months supports is self explanatory about this aspect. ;-)

So should we really blame a distribution for trying to be what it aims to be?

I think not, as everybody, even Fedora developers, will suggest you a more supported distribution if you want to run a production system.

Bye,
Diego.

P.S.: If you want to be sure that Fedora is not intended to be "a product for end users" and instead aims to be a place to "help free software to advance" you can read the inteview with Paul Frields.

http://tinyurl.com/5lmxzm

Here you are a quote:
?Softpedia: How does Fedora intend to overtake Ubuntu?

Paul W. Frields: Interestingly, this question assumes that Fedora's goals, and the way we achieve them, are exactly the same as Ubuntu's. Like Ubuntu, we have millions of users. We're able to report that, based on the entirely open source technologies we use for our project. The key to Fedora's strategy is realizing that doubling our number of users doesn't help advance free and open source software as much as doubling the number of active contributors. The work those contributors do creates a far better experience with Linux, and that work reaches audiences through many channels besides just the Fedora Project. Some technology examples include NetworkManager, PackageKit, IcedTea and OpenJDK 6, and ext4. You can see these technologies in distributions other than Fedora, which shows the impact this "culture of contribution" idea is having across FOSS.?

[energyman]

yes you should blame Fedora!

Xorg 7.4 isn't even released. So it is there fault to include half broken non-releases and turning it users in pre-alpha testers.

And you can't blame AMD for not supporting software that is not even released!

So Fedora fucked up - again.

[panda84]

so don't use 'unstable testbed for RHEL' Fedora but a distro that doesn't see its userbase as a laboratory basement full with guinea pigs.

I feel much comfortable with Fedora as of now because it ships the open source ati 6.9.0 driver. The "not for guinea pigs" Ubuntu does not have it in backports.

No one is forced to choose Fedora. As every distribution it has its pros and cons. In change of some risks Fedora often offers several pros...

And btw, should I really blame Fedora for fglrx not working with XOrg 7.4?
And btw, why can't you stick with Fedora 8 until a proper driver is released?

I mean... Linux has always been a moving ground. To me it does not make sense waking up now and saying "I want it all now!".

[energyman]

so don't use 'unstable testbed for RHEL' Fedora but a distro that doesn't see its userbase as a laboratory basement full with guinea pigs.

[grantek]

So the moral of the story is: If you're a Fedora user, don't buy the latest products from ATI, if you don't mind closed-source drivers, buy NVIDIA.

If you're after community-developed open source drivers, that should be pretty obvious - AMD hasn't even released the R700 documentation yet, so even with AtomBIOS you can't expect there to be much support for the HD4800 series with open drivers.

Your comments on the closed-source drivers are spot-on though - I'd hope (expect, really) the next release of fglrx brings compatibility to newer kernels/Xorg 1.5.

Once RadeonHD gets some good 3d work going, I'd expect as a customer that AMD would support it actively for new cores/cards, so that open driver support comes about the same time as a core release. The fact that they're commissioning the open driver themselves is exactly why I'm happy enough with my purchase of a currently-flaky HD4850.