For $3100 USD You Can Have A Fast, Fully-Free-Software Workstation

[torsionbar28]

Or maybe we have different views about OSS. My ability to inspect firmware (GPLv3 etc) and in the end actually what constitutes the
hardware is how I view it.

For me, CPUs, GPUs etc, are just written in Verilog, VHDL, SystemC etc. I see no difference between hardware and code executing on it. Both are descriptions in languages. If you cannot inspect what you are running on, you cannot claim any full open source system.
I can accept that it is synthesized by a trusted partner, but never written.

For me it is the same as saying, this is a binary blob, just use it (which I don't like).
I can accept that a friend compiled it for me, but never that I was just given a blob without having source to it.

In reality I have just accepted that hardware is hardware. I run on closed source hardware just as everybody else.

I agree that inspection is critical to a FOSS system. No binary blobs. No closed source black boxes. It's got to be totally open for full inspection. And that's exactly what this Raptor system delivers. You cannot modify this POWER8 ASIC any more than you could an intel x86 ASIC. So I'm not entirely sure what it is you're claiming. You have exactly as much control over this IBM POWER8 ASIC as you do any other ASIC. I.e. unless you've got a chip fab in your basement, you are trusting that part of the process to someone else.

[madscientist159]

Or maybe we have different views about OSS. My ability to inspect firmware (GPLv3 etc) and in the end actually what constitutes the
hardware is how I view it.

For me, CPUs, GPUs etc, are just written in Verilog, VHDL, SystemC etc. I see no difference between hardware and code executing on it. Both are descriptions in languages. If you cannot inspect what you are running on, you cannot claim any full open source system.
I can accept that it is synthesized by a trusted partner, but never written.

For me it is the same as saying, this is a binary blob, just use it (which I don't like).
I can accept that a friend compiled it for me, but never that I was just given a blob without having source to it.

In reality I have just accepted that hardware is hardware. I run on closed source hardware just as everybody else.

There is one critical distinction that I think keeps getting lost in the noise. Software is mutable, hardware (short of FPGAs and outright replacement of ASICs) is immutable. Intel could (theoretically, of course, no one knows the true capabilities of the ME) update your ME firmware remotely without your permission and maybe even without your knowledge. Good luck modifying hardware the same way; not only do most people know when their stuff leaves their possession but in most jurisdictions physically altering/replacing someone's physical property would be illegal, even for the original manufacturer.

No one's talking about hardware interception/modification, the simple fact is if you're a bad enough actor various agencies *will* find a way to get to you. The idea is more to keep malicious and snoopy types out of the majority of people's computers, and rely on the fact that silicon can't easily be modified to target a select few individuals without firmware assisting in one way or another.

Just my $0.02. :-)

[milkylainen]

I think you're misinterpreting FOSS concepts. The ability to alter the ASIC has nothing to do with it.

Or maybe we have different views about OSS. My ability to inspect firmware (GPLv3 etc) and in the end actually what constitutes the
hardware is how I view it.

For me, CPUs, GPUs etc, are just written in Verilog, VHDL, SystemC etc. I see no difference between hardware and code executing on it. Both are descriptions in languages. If you cannot inspect what you are running on, you cannot claim any full open source system.
I can accept that it is synthesized by a trusted partner, but never written.

For me it is the same as saying, this is a binary blob, just use it (which I don't like).
I can accept that a friend compiled it for me, but never that I was just given a blob without having source to it.

In reality I have just accepted that hardware is hardware. I run on closed source hardware just as everybody else.

[milkylainen]

That is exactly what you do. Open architectures are a hedge against hardware hegemony, that enables consumers of the architecture to develop and fab their own alternative implementations of the architecture, that can consume and execute the same binaries.

You cannot have that security with x86, and to get it on ARM you need to pay ARM Holdings a gratuitous amount of money, and because of the nature of ARM licensing you cannot be guaranteed they will not change their licensing policies in the future just as a user of the architecture. The only way to be confident that future products will not work against your interest is the ability to replace them at will.

Sure. But in realistic terms, "normal" customers are not going to afford a fab built to ensure that hardware does not get modified.

Or you do it like China and Russia. Develop your own hardware, including CPUs. Built in locally trusted fabs.

[torsionbar28]

Free/OSS solution is a pipe dream. The CPU is an IBM ASIC right? Done, moot point etc. You have absolutely 0 control over what has been implemented in the ASIC unless you are guaranteed to have the code that was put to production for inspection. Even if you did, there is absolutely 0 guarantee of a late masking on the CPU.
Unless you produce your own hardware in your own controlled fabs with people you absolutely trust, ... well... I don't think need to explain more.

I think you're misinterpreting FOSS concepts. The ability to alter the ASIC has nothing to do with it.

[zanny]

Free/OSS solution is a pipe dream. The CPU is an IBM ASIC right? Done, moot point etc. You have absolutely 0 control over what has been implemented in the ASIC unless you are guaranteed to have the code that was put to production for inspection. Even if you did, there is absolutely 0 guarantee of a late masking on the CPU.
Unless you produce your own hardware in your own controlled fabs with people you absolutely trust, ... well... I don't think need to explain more.

That is exactly what you do. Open architectures are a hedge against hardware hegemony, that enables consumers of the architecture to develop and fab their own alternative implementations of the architecture, that can consume and execute the same binaries.

You cannot have that security with x86, and to get it on ARM you need to pay ARM Holdings a gratuitous amount of money, and because of the nature of ARM licensing you cannot be guaranteed they will not change their licensing policies in the future just as a user of the architecture. The only way to be confident that future products will not work against your interest is the ability to replace them at will.

[curaga]

Why 8 -> 57 cores? Shouldn't it be 64, with each core having 8 threads? I'd buy one if I was rich.

[milkylainen]

Free/OSS solution is a pipe dream. The CPU is an IBM ASIC right? Done, moot point etc. You have absolutely 0 control over what has been implemented in the ASIC unless you are guaranteed to have the code that was put to production for inspection. Even if you did, there is absolutely 0 guarantee of a late masking on the CPU.
Unless you produce your own hardware in your own controlled fabs with people you absolutely trust, ... well... I don't think need to explain more.

[zanny]

I hope this succeeds. I don't need a new workstation now, but would absolutely consider this in the future. The price premium is necessary to support open computing, which is more important now more than ever.

It isn't their fault there isn't a single freedom respecting GPU on the market. In the same way they needed to adopt a more consumer friendly CPU architecture to get away from the unusable x86 they probably need to look for open GPU solutions outside the Intel / Nvidia / AMD trifecta.

I always feel the ethics around GPUs are still very far behind generic CPUs and SoCs. There is a lot less interest and I guess more importantly money targeting unrestricted graphics processors. Part of it makes sense - an open GPU needs an open host - but this will be a show stopper for the forseeable future if users want to trust their systems.

The only other problem is storage devices - none on the market are trustable due to proprietary designs and firmware, so hopefully if we can get a good open CPU + firmware platform (be it Power8, Risc-V, or SPARC) we can see more hardware startup interest in user friendly options in both GPUs and hard drives.

[torsionbar28]

I'm awfully curious as to which ATX form factor motherboard they're using. I assumed it was the Tyan "Palmetto" board, but after reading it again, it can't be. The Palmetto only has two PCI-E slots, but the description of this Raptor system claims a "plethora" of PCI-E slots. I have to believe that it takes more than two to qualify as a plethora. So it sounds like this workstation is based on an entirely new POWER motherboard that has not yet been seen in the wild.... interesting stuff!