AMD Maui: Ultimate HTPC Integration

[halfmanhalfamazing]

I saw this over at SPC:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article918-page1.html

=======AMD Live! is an initiative to promote PC software and hardware for better home entertainment. It is a concept that few hardware enthusiasts are familiar with. For many, their only knowledge of AMD Live! comes from the sticker spotted on the occasional brand name AMD-powered computer at a big box store. So what does it take to be AMD Live! certified? Basically a dual core processor, Vista Aero-capable graphics, and digital video and audio outputs ? not exactly tough requirements.=========

But get a load of this MSI motherboard!

http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&maincat_no=134&prod_no=1654

I'd love to see that running(supported fully) correctly under linux!

[deanjo]

Embedded D2Audio DAE3 Pure digital Amplifier IC

Absolutely horrible idea on that motherboard. Lets take audio and put it in a extremely inhospitable environment for audio signal (unshielded to boot), amplify it in that noisy environment that can't provide a sufficient power supply stage for decent audio.

Home theater buffs are laughing their ass off everywhere. As far as the review goes can you really take their assessment with any seriousness when they use solid core wiring for speakers?

[grantek]

Off topic, but what's the problem with solid core? Is it just that it needs to be inherently thinner than a big low-resistance stranded core cable?

Either way, it won't stop people from buying into it and proclaiming it the best HTPC setup ever, regardless of its actual merits. Remember when someone (I think it was Asus) put a tube amp on their motherboard?

[deanjo]

Off topic, but what's the problem with solid core? Is it just that it needs to be inherently thinner than a big low-resistance stranded core cable?

Either way, it won't stop people from buying into it and proclaiming it the best HTPC setup ever, regardless of its actual merits. Remember when someone (I think it was Asus) put a tube amp on their motherboard?

The main advantages of using stranded vs solid in speaker connections is that stranded wire has more surface area then the same guage solid core, is less susceptible to breakage and of course flexibility.

As far as the tube amp board, that was AOpen that had that and it as well was laughed at when presented to audio lovers (tubes are subject to picking up noise much more easily then their solid state counterparts, not to mention the added heat to the system as a whole).

[halfmanhalfamazing]

Whoa, whoa. Take it easy there. No need to come out swinging. It's only a motherboard. :-)

Absolutely horrible idea on that motherboard. Lets take audio and put it in a extremely inhospitable environment for audio signal (unshielded to boot), amplify it in that noisy environment that can't provide a sufficient power supply stage for decent audio.

Not bad observations. They said it sounded pretty good though. Yes, I know. "pretty good" is incredibly subjective. But if there were loud whines, static, or other obviously noticeable noise residuals I'm sure it would've been noted.

Furthermore, I doubt AMD would've gone through all this trouble to create a platform such as this using a motherboard like this if it wasn't at least half way decent.

Home theater buffs are laughing their ass off everywhere.

Heh heh, I doubt a truely hard core audiophile would even consider such a setup. This is for the "hardcore HTPC'er", if there is such a thing. Perhaps AMD is trying to create that person/group out of thin air to create a new revenue stream.

HTPC is become a somewhat big thing, people are doing it all over the place, and there are several distros devoted exclusively to this. MS also has it's own windows distro that's for media centers. So it seems like it's a logical next step, no?

[deanjo]

Whoa, whoa. Take it easy there. No need to come out swinging. It's only a motherboard. :-)



Not bad observations. They said it sounded pretty good though. Yes, I know. "pretty good" is incredibly subjective. But if there were loud whines, static, or other obviously noticeable noise residuals I'm sure it would've been noted.

Furthermore, I doubt AMD would've gone through all this trouble to create a platform such as this using a motherboard like this if it wasn't at least half way decent.



Heh heh, I doubt a truely hard core audiophile would even consider such a setup. This is for the "hardcore HTPC'er", if there is such a thing. Perhaps AMD is trying to create that person/group out of thin air to create a new revenue stream.

HTPC is become a somewhat big thing, people are doing it all over the place, and there are several distros devoted exclusively to this. MS also has it's own windows distro that's for media centers. So it seems like it's a logical next step, no?

It's not even audiophiles that are laughing their ass off. It's just plain old HTPC buffs. This is not even close to being the first attempt at popping an amp into a PC. Previous attempts were even more robust. A hardcore HTPC'r is going to use an external amp or a externally powered setup at least like a Logitech setup that quite honestly beats that internal amp to a bloody pulp. Putting a amp in the system also increases heat which has to be vented meaning more (read noisier) active cooling and a beefier powersupply which is the bane of any HTPC buff.

Also in a era of mp3 players and such, it is not surprising that the reviewer may have missed or simply has diminished hearing to the point where they are no longer able to tell the difference. Plus if you take a look at the enviroment it was being used in with the pictures you would see that it leaves much to be desired and is far from ideal for testing.

As far as AMD building a platform and putting so much effort into it, they have done that before with varying degrees of success. Remember the DTX form factor? Or how about the Geodes? How about the AMD Interwave chip? AMD has brought out is fair share of white elephants in the past.

[Saist]

I see somebody already brought up the Aopen tube sound. I had one of those motherboards, and no... it wasn't as good as an external amp. To my ears, the entirely digitial Sound Blaster Live 5.1 had better sound.

One of the other big problems is that the tube only powered two speakers, so you had no surround sound, or at least on the motherboard I had.

However, I didn't think the idea was without merit. What I proposed back then as a solution was an external breakout box, similar to what Hercules shipped with the Game Theater sound card. A breakout box would have enough space to mount tubes for each channel, and would solve the problem of electronic interferance, while still having the simplicity of being connected to PC system.

However, just as Nvidia never followed up on a PCI version of Soundstorm, Aopen and other sound vendors showed no interest in taking the Tubesound idea to another level.


Now we direct you back to your scheduled thread discussion about this MSI motherboard.

[Java Jack]

It's not even audiophiles that are laughing their ass off. It's just plain old HTPC buffs. This is not even close to being the first attempt at popping an amp into a PC. Previous attempts were even more robust. A hardcore HTPC'r is going to use an external amp or a externally powered setup at least like a Logitech setup that quite honestly beats that internal amp to a bloody pulp. Putting a amp in the system also increases heat which has to be vented meaning more (read noisier) active cooling and a beefier powersupply which is the bane of any HTPC buff.

Also in a era of mp3 players and such, it is not surprising that the reviewer may have missed or simply has diminished hearing to the point where they are no longer able to tell the difference. Plus if you take a look at the enviroment it was being used in with the pictures you would see that it leaves much to be desired and is far from ideal for testing.

As far as AMD building a platform and putting so much effort into it, they have done that before with varying degrees of success. Remember the DTX form factor? Or how about the Geodes? How about the AMD Interwave chip? AMD has brought out is fair share of white elephants in the past.

Hmm, let me start off by saying that I am one of the guys that helped define and enable this platform so I understand that my opinion is somewhat biased.

Now, I don't wish to offend, but frankly you have not experienced this platform first hand so you really have no idea about the quality of this platform. You are speaking from an uninformed position without any factualy or even anecdotal evidence at all. In fact, it seems like you really did not read the review all that closely.

While this platform was never positioned as an "audiophile" solution, it does offer great performance and value. Perhaps you should check the specs to get a better idea of what we are talking about.

SNR >105dB THD <0.1=%

Those are on par with mainstream AVRs from Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony in the $700 to $1K price range...don't believe me, check it yourself.

Not everyone is "laughing their ass off" as you put it. In fact, real customers that actually have the platform are extremeley pleased with the audio/video quality from this platform. Those that might be laughing have likely not experienced this platform first hand and are just assuming it is crap because no one has successfully implemented a design like this.

As to your other points, again, you are clearly uninformed. This is a class D digital amp, it does not get no where near as hot as class AB or class A analog amps. In fact, the amp card only dissipates around 10W under full load. Being class D, it is much more efficient as well, in fact this design is 93% efficient. This means, most of the power coming into the amp is going back out to the speakers, not lost in the form of heat like Class AB amps.

Oh, and your comments about Logitech beating it to a pulp? Hmm, you might want to do some research. Even their most expensive Z5500s specs don't come near the D2Audio based design of Maui.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=us,en

SNR 93.5dB, THD 10%

By the way, dB scale is logrithmic. This means with every gain in 3dB, performance actually doubles.

To you point about MP3s, as Mike pointed out on page 8 of the review, his source material was FLAC Lossless audio files, not MP3s.

By the way, D2Audio is the company that did the audio design for this platform. They sell similar designs into B&W, Denon, Phasetech, Control 4, Kenwood and others. They just took that same design and modified it for the HTPC segment. This is just a lower power version of their design that was done for THX Ultra 2 certification. Change out the caps for higher power, increase the transformer for higher power and you have the THX design.

In addition to the review provided by Mike Chen, here are some REAL customers and their quotes...

"Just wanted to pop my head in and say I?ve heard this setup at D2Audio?s offices with some high-end speakers?Absolutely beautiful sound, even at high volumes. And if you want to know my reference, it?s a pair of DT BP 2002s hooked to an Integra 5.9.? - Chris Morley, Morley Digital

?I just built a system with the 5.1 amp card, it will be replacing my Panasonic XR57. I?m still playing around with it, but so far it?s at least equal to the performance of that unit?What really surprised me is how dead quiet this thing is with no signal playing, no hiss, pops, crackles, nothing. Would have never thought this was possible within the confines of a PC.? - Nick Billeci

?I am very excited about this build, it is currently slated to replace the following components

Integra DTR 7.4 $1200
Toshiba HDA30 HDDVD player $250

Sony BDP300 Bluray $400

Pretty impressive that a sub 200 dollar mobo and amp card can deliver performance rivaling that of the components listed? I am thrilled so far with the results.? - Mark G.

?My initial impression on the quality is ?absolutely phenomenal?, both audio and video. This was definitely worth the wait. In fact, I am ordering another one next week.? - William H.

Therefore, don't be so ready to discount something you have never even heard in person. I have been using this platform for several months and very pleased with what we have developed.

As both an engineer and someone that appriciates good audio, I think we have a very effective solution here. I would suggest you do some research before blatantly bashing a product you know nothing about.

I have demo'd this platform to thousands of people at this point and personally built over 100 of them for Press and Field demo units. I can count on 1 hand the number of negative comments I have received after demonstrating the platform. In fact, the most common response I get is "When can I get one?"

[Saist]

Jack: I'm almost tempted to say "ignore Deanjo" : he's got a long history of shooting off his mouth here and getting shot down really quickly. I've personally shot him down in two different threads in the past week.

Thanks for the rebuttal though. The THX certification information is certainly most interesting.

[deanjo]

While this platform was never positioned as an "audiophile" solution, it does offer great performance and value. Perhaps you should check the specs to get a better idea of what we are talking about.

SNR >105dB THD <0.1=%

That's nice to bad it means nothing about inducted noise through lack of proper shielding, groundloop isolation, bus noise, etc. Shit in, shit out. You can have the worlds greatest amp with the lowest signal to noise ratio and inducted noise can bring it to it's knees.

Those are on par with mainstream AVRs from Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony in the $700 to $1K price range...don't believe me, check it yourself.

Actually even the cheapest Pioneer (200 MRSP) has 1/2 the THD level

Not everyone is "laughing their ass off" as you put it. In fact, real customers that actually have the platform are extremeley pleased with the audio/video quality from this platform. Those that might be laughing have likely not experienced this platform first hand and are just assuming it is crap because no one has successfully implemented a design like this.

As to your other points, again, you are clearly uninformed. This is a class D digital amp, it does not get no where near as hot as class AB or class A analog amps. In fact, the amp card only dissipates around 10W under full load. Being class D, it is much more efficient as well, in fact this design is 93% efficient. This means, most of the power coming into the amp is going back out to the speakers, not lost in the form of heat like Class AB amps.

I'm well aware of the advantages and disadvantages of Class D amps (BTW Class D does not refer to being digital, there is nothing digital about a Class D amp.. Even at 93% efficiency, your still operating at 100 watts peak per channel. FYI peak power ratings mean shit. Put some real RMS values behind it and then start talking specs. With the dynamic range of your premium audio streams found in Hi Def media that doesn't leave a lot for headroom for the extremely dynamic volume that they have. No serious audio company quotes peak power while leaving RMS values unlisted.

Oh, and your comments about Logitech beating it to a pulp? Hmm, you might want to do some research. Even their most expensive Z5500s specs don't come near the D2Audio based design of Maui.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=us,en

SNR 93.5dB, THD 10%

Ya but what the Logitech do have is ample power to exploit the dynamic volume levels. Volume is what people notice more then THD. Just walk up to almost any kids car with an audio system and look at his gains on the amp "OH GEE!!! Another volume control!!!!" You ever wonder why tubes amps get the nod for sound quality by most people and why they say it's a "warmer" sound? It's because tube carry a very high THD. That distortion is the "warmth".

By the way, dB scale is logrithmic. This means with every gain in 3dB, performance actually doubles.

Very good, you also know then as well that you still have your speaker choice to contend with and deal with their effeciency.

To you point about MP3s, as Mike pointed out on page 8 of the review, his source material was FLAC Lossless audio files, not MP3s.

Go read the MP3 statement again. I never said they were using MP3 for the tests. I said

Also in a era of mp3 players and such, it is not surprising that the reviewer may have missed or simply has diminished hearing to the point where they are no longer able to tell the difference. Plus if you take a look at the enviroment it was being used in with the pictures you would see that it leaves much to be desired and is far from ideal for testing.

By the way, D2Audio is the company that did the audio design for this platform. They sell similar designs into B&W, Denon, Phasetech, Control 4, Kenwood and others.

What is manufactured for other outfits have no influence on what is manufactured for others. Pretty much every company that does high end components nowdays also has their lower budget brands that do not come close to their highend parts.

They just took that same design and modified it for the HTPC segment. This is just a lower power version of their design that was done for THX Ultra 2 certification. Change out the caps for higher power, increase the transformer for higher power and you have the THX design.

Umm increasing the transformer does not increase power output ESPECIALLY in a Class D amp. The power stage is a switching design. Caps do not increase power either, they do however act as a reserve for power output in rapid transient loads. (IE hard bass notes that quickly strain the outputs and increase the strain on the power supplies switching circuit, without them the output would tap out and not maintain the load)

In addition to the review provided by Mike Chen, here are some REAL customers and their quotes...

"Just wanted to pop my head in and say I’ve heard this setup at D2Audio’s offices with some high-end speakers…Absolutely beautiful sound, even at high volumes. And if you want to know my reference, it’s a pair of DT BP 2002s hooked to an Integra 5.9.” - Chris Morley, Morley Digital

“I just built a system with the 5.1 amp card, it will be replacing my Panasonic XR57. I’m still playing around with it, but so far it’s at least equal to the performance of that unit…What really surprised me is how dead quiet this thing is with no signal playing, no hiss, pops, crackles, nothing. Would have never thought this was possible within the confines of a PC.” - Nick Billeci

“I am very excited about this build, it is currently slated to replace the following components

Integra DTR 7.4 $1200
Toshiba HDA30 HDDVD player $250

Sony BDP300 Bluray $400

Pretty impressive that a sub 200 dollar mobo and amp card can deliver performance rivaling that of the components listed… I am thrilled so far with the results.” - Mark G.

“My initial impression on the quality is “absolutely phenomenal”, both audio and video. This was definitely worth the wait. In fact, I am ordering another one next week.” - William H.

Therefore, don't be so ready to discount something you have never even heard in person. I have been using this platform for several months and very pleased with what we have developed.

As both an engineer and someone that appriciates good audio, I think we have a very effective solution here. I would suggest you do some research before blatantly bashing a product you know nothing about.

Hand picked testimonials really prove nothing. I can show you all kinds of testimonials for all types of products where even the crappiest product gets a rave review. As far as not knowing anything about the product goes, I do know that the claimed specs do not jive with real world performance. Nothing in life is free and for an amp card that costs $50 that lives in a audio signal hell environment and gets signal from a crappy source that is prone to picking up noise itself.

I have demo'd this platform to thousands of people at this point and personally built over 100 of them for Press and Field demo units. I can count on 1 hand the number of negative comments I have received after demonstrating the platform. In fact, the most common response I get is "When can I get one?"

I've never looked down at a free beer either.

PS. I've been designing and building amps as a hobby since I was 10. That's over 25 years now.