Originally posted by dee.
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Mir Still Causing Concerns By Ubuntu Derivatives
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Originally posted by mrugiero View PostThey are not unreasonable. When you accept a patch, you accept the responsability of maintaining the code including the patch, which would probably be a nightmare, not only because then every other distribution would have a case to say "hey, but you did accept this distro specific patches!", but because one of the main features Mir announces is to be PROTOCOL AGNOSTIC, and KWin and KDE DEPENDS on having a fixed protocol. You see where this goes? Since they need to know the protocol, which Mir abstracts, they're pretty much screwed even if they have the will to port it. Even if they make it work, since it's protocol agnostic (which is really, really useful to make Unity portable, but pretty much a pain in the ass for everyone that depends on a protocol) it's likely to break the API, then you'd need to make MORE distro specific patches. Not only this would displace resources from other things, but it's known that new code is very likely to introduce new bugs, so they'll probably be distorting for the worse the whole other users' experience with KDE. It's pretty much a reasonable response to not support it altogether. Specially when it's open source: you want KDE on Mir, then fork it regularly and maintain it in your own branch without screwing up all the Wayland and X.org users. That would be what you suggest later, but it's important to keep in mind that it's not just because of a whim, but there are actual valid reasons.
I was saying that the KWin project should not have discounted acceptance of any Mir patches right from the get go without reviewing any code.
Furthermore, the KWin guys wouldn't be forced to carry buggy patches if it ever came to that, they could easily rip the Mir specific code out if it ever came to that.
So those issues you raised weren't really issues in the first place.
Originally posted by mrugiero View PostHOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
Is it okay for you to take the other side and not be called a hypocrite?
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Originally posted by mrugiero View PostThe real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so.
Speculation aside:
Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads
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Originally posted by mrugiero View PostHOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
Originally posted by mrugiero View PostThere's also the fact Mir started with the wrong foot spreading FUD without actually understanding what they were talking about. This not only makes a snowball of retaliation FUD, but makes them lose credibility with the community.
But that is no reason for the mudslinging that especially the KDE site is running since then. While everyone pretends that it could have been the perfect cooperation with ubuntu/Canonical and the Wayland site the time after the MIR announcement (again: the bad wiki site was a big mistake) showed, that there was alot of tension behind the scenes.
But back to the FUD: The KWIN developer told FUD about ubuntu several times himselv on big interviews and even wanted to send a adhortatory letter because Shuttleworth said in his blog he has " absolutely no doubt that Kwin will work just fine on top of Mir."
In the ML-thread i see again ubuntu and canonical trying to give a hand to the KDE site and the KDE site again tries to put unity and ubuntu/canonical into a bad light (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/037277.html).
i do think not accepting distro-specific-patches is a valid reason(, even i think its just a fake-reason just to not support MIR). But working together with ubuntu/canonical to keep kubuntu alive should be on KDE's agenda, too.
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Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostCanonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.
Mr. Phoronix speculated about NVidia eventually supportin Wayland, but also linked that to Ubuntu adoption.
I wonder how you came to such a twisted view.
Afaik Mir needs EGL and Wayland is also capable of utilizing it.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostSpeculation aside:
Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads
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Originally posted by mrugiero View PostWell, my post disappeared again. If I'm being moderated, please PM me and delete this post as well, I'd like to know to stop bothering in trying to explain AGAIN what I already said like four times.
If not, I wonder what is going on.
A chunk of my posts also went missing in here as well, noticeably during the server migration period.
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Originally posted by Sonadow View PostYou are (most probably) not being moderated.
A chunk of my posts also went missing in here as well, noticeably during the server migration period.
The FUD was accidental, I wasn't aware ATM that Wayland only needs EGL to work (thus, the driver developed for Mir should be useful for Wayland too), so I apologize for that.
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NVidia said it was going to Support EGL back at the XDC2012
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostCanonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.
Speculation aside:
Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads
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OK, writing all the text again, because my posting seems to got lost.
Originally posted by mrugiero View PostHOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
Originally posted by mrugiero View PostThere's also the fact Mir started with the wrong foot spreading FUD without actually understanding what they were talking about. This not only makes a snowball of retaliation FUD, but makes them lose credibility with the community.
So talking about FUD and pointing only at Ubuntu/Canonical is just one site of the medal.
I do think not accepting distro-specific patches is valid, even i think its just a fake-argument to not support MIR at all. BUT helping kubuntu and working, together with ubuntu/canonical, on a solution to keep kubuntu alive. I see again some reaching hand from ubuntu/canonical site, but all i see from KDE is just the drama.
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