AMD Announces Ryzen 7000 Series "Zen 4" Desktop CPUs - Linux Benchmarks To Come

[Anux]

My issue with that logic is that Pluton such little sense in the context of the Linux-dominated server world, and server is where AMD is making big bucks right now. Using a Microsoft security solution on a Linux server is just... like... what? Where's the logic there?

As said its just TPM at its core, either one can just use the TPM standard and ignore the Pluton extentions or there will be a switch to expose a standard tpm. (just guessing)

All features that got anounced about Pluton untill now are already possible with standard TPM. It remains to be seen what special extras it will add if it's not all marketing bullshit.

And because AMD's desktop offering and server offerings are tied to the hip via the use of identical compute dies, this is where it would just be making more work for themselves to offer Pluton in chiplet architectures because it'd still have to interface with those compute dies used on server as well

Zen 4 compute dies are the exact same from notebook to server, if you really believe that pluton is on those compute dies, it would be on all CPU variations (except the cloud variants which are different dies).

It's not unaltered; the CCD is actually upside down compared to the 5800X non-3D.

Are you going to split hairs or do you want to tell me that these are different dies? Because to implement Pluton in X3D they would have to make a new design, extra masks, etc. That would go directly against AMDs strategy behind the chiplett approach. For one SKU?

There is simply no logical reason why pluton would be on the compute die. Just name one.

But DLSS !!!!!!!111!111

Really? You know that DLSS is not available in all games but RSR is. Lets just compare native and leave it at that.

[qarium]

Last time I checked the 6900XT traded blows with 3090 maybe 3% behind on average at 4K. And that is with 50W less, wouldn't exactly call this loosing.

and let me ask was this with or without DLSS2.x ?

what you say is maybe true and still a loss on people who dont care about powerconsumsion and want the maximum performance.

also the 50w less power consumsion goes away as soon as you activate DLSS2.x...

of course AMD has FSR1.0 and FSR2.0 but most games who support technology like this only support DLss2.x--.-

[NM64]

Oct. 2022 UPDATE: Welp, if Anandtech's Ryzen 7950X review is to be believed, then desktop Zen4 / Ryzen 7000 does indeed have Pluton:

• https://www.anandtech.com/show/17585...the-high-end/6

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ORIGINAL POST

I'm just extending logically what is done already.

My issue with that logic is that Pluton such little sense in the context of the Linux-dominated server world, and server is where AMD is making big bucks right now. Using a Microsoft security solution on a Linux server is just... like... what? Where's the logic there?

And because AMD's desktop offering and server offerings are tied to the hip via the use of identical compute dies, this is where it would just be making more work for themselves to offer Pluton in chiplet architectures because it'd still have to interface with those compute dies used on server as well, and server definitely takes priority in AMD's book (one could argue that Zen as a whole is a server-focused architecture that was basically down-ported to desktop and mobile).

PS: 5800X3D is an unaltered 5800 with cache on top

It's not unaltered; the CCD is actually upside down compared to the 5800X non-3D.

[Anux]

I imagine that the vast difference in SOC topology between server/desktop and mobile has a lot to do with it - anything like Pluton would not be part of the compute die(s) (PSP, which handles TPM, is currently part of the I/O die), and mobile does not use chiplets at this time (AMD's upcoming Zen4 "Dragon Range" is rumored to basically just be the two-chiplet desktop repackaged for laptops though).

Pluton will most likely also be in the I/O die, it doesn't make sense to have it in the compute die because you only need one (Threadripper with 4 Plutons?). For possible monolithic dies it will be on there like it is on Ryzen 6000.

One thing in particular is that there's rumors from Moore's Law is Dead that Zen3 and Zen4 is basically designed so that, if AMD wanted to, they could pair Zen3's I/O die with Zen4 compute die(s) on AM4 or pair Zen4's I/O die with Zen3 compute die(s) on AM5, and obvious Zen3 non-plus does not support Pluton.

Tom is just playing around with ideas he doesn't know everything and does say so. Just because he thinks it's possible doesn't mean it will be done. I'm watching most of his stuff tho because he's almost always right if he says he knows for sure.

On the subject of I/O dies, it's worth noting that the server I/O die is different from the desktop I/O die despite the compute dies being identical.

That still doesn't say anything about Pluton. If they want to have Win Server on it they will have Pluton there and they probably will. It's easier to make it switchable then to build different CPUs for Linux.

"Just"... except that Microsoft mandates that Microsoft requires the 3rd Party Certificate to be disabled by default if you ship Windows pre-installed on a device with Pluton.

> Disabled by default
What do you read into that? Maybe some devices (Surface?) will have no off switch, but surely not all.

You're doing the very thing I already stated that too many armchair experts are doing - proclaiming definitive statements when we have no definitive proof.

I'm just extending logically what is done already.

If you meant all CPUs period, then we can already say that's false since there have been several desktop CPUs launched after Ryzen 6000 (e.g. the 5800X3D) that lack Pluton. If you meant CPU architecture, then that goes back to what I said above in that Pluton is not something that would be part of the actual compute die(s) and therefore we have a divergent architecture between server/desktop and mobile.

Maybe I wrote "that wants to run Windows 11" with a reason? Surely a Playstation won't have it.

PS: 5800X3D is an unaltered 5800 with cache on top

[Mahboi]

I think you might be mixing up "Dragon Range" with "Phoenix":
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryze...specifications

I just might be, apologies about that. Still, I think the offer is solid as a mountain. Laptops always suffered from the simple physical limitations of power and fan capability. The company that starts seriously bringing the hammer on that suffering may just bring down the good old desktop. Sadly, it will probably mean a whole new era of problems with locked-in OEMs and serious age issues, but it will sell nonetheless.

I'm not particularly obsessed with minimalism, but I just observe that the amount of processing power has now exceeded a lot of our needs (in CPU space, GPU is another story). If we can start working towards a form of standardisation of capacity and lower power draw instead, we might just reach a standard that might satisfy most if not all of our basic computing needs for...well, ever. Not happening within 5 or even 10 years, but getting to a lower power draw and be satisfied with a lack of big power growth may be the first step.

[NM64]

The goal with Dragon Range may be a simple no-chiplet design with the intent of aiming for sub 55W power consumption.

A low-ish power CPU with RDNA3 is gonna be a strong sell I feel

I think you might be mixing up "Dragon Range" with "Phoenix":
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryze...specifications

[Mahboi]

(AMD's upcoming Zen4 "Dragon Range" is rumored to basically just be the two-chiplet desktop repackaged for laptops though).

The grapevine (aka extremely trustworthy youtube leakers, ofc) says that it won't even be that. The goal with Dragon Range may be a simple no-chiplet design with the intent of aiming for sub 55W power consumption. Which if they do succeed, might actually make me replace my near-dead laptop.

A low-ish power CPU with RDNA3 is gonna be a strong sell I feel, even in the upcoming economic crisis. AMD has put its balls in the right holes, and may yet reap rewards for all of the 2020s...

[NM64]

Oct. 2022 UPDATE: Welp, if Anandtech's Ryzen 7950X review is to be believed, then desktop Zen4 / Ryzen 7000 does indeed have Pluton:

• https://www.anandtech.com/show/17585...the-high-end/6

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ORIGINAL POST

Have they changed their mind, are they not advertising it, or is there some sort of problem?

I imagine that the vast difference in SOC topology between server/desktop and mobile has a lot to do with it - anything like Pluton would not be part of the compute die(s) (PSP, which handles TPM, is currently part of the I/O die), and mobile does not use chiplets at this time (AMD's upcoming Zen4 "Dragon Range" is rumored to basically just be the two-chiplet desktop repackaged for laptops though).

Furthermore, consider that the desktop core chiplets are the exact same compute die chiplets used in server platforms, and we know that there are a lot of servers running Linux rather than Windows (I would think that the likes of Google for example wouldn't be too impressed if they were forced to run Microsoft's Pluton security solution, especially since they already have their own "Google TPM" security solution, at least in Chrome OS, that simply leverages TPM).

One thing in particular is that there's rumors from Moore's Law is Dead that Zen3 and Zen4 is basically designed so that, if AMD wanted to, they could pair Zen3's I/O die with Zen4 compute die(s) on AM4 or pair Zen4's I/O die with Zen3 compute die(s) on AM5, and obvious Zen3 non-plus does not support Pluton.

On the subject of I/O dies, it's worth noting that the server I/O die is different from the desktop I/O die despite the compute dies being identical. So, much like the mixing-and-matching of Zen3 and Zen4 compute and I/O dies, you still need the Zen4 compute dies to be compatible with both the desktop and server I/O dies.

Pluton is just hardware TPM

"Just"... except that Microsoft mandates that Microsoft requires the 3rd Party Certificate to be disabled by default if you ship Windows pre-installed on a device with Pluton.

Now you may say "just toggle the corresponding BIOS setting" but that's assuming such a setting is even exposed - have you seen how locked down most OEM systems are? Heck, even enthusiast-focused gaming handhelds, devices ideally suited for the future release of SteamOS 3, can have even more locked down BIOS settings (I have a 4800U OneXPlayer and I've never seen a BIOS with so few user-changable options, and I'm a PC hardware enthusiast that literally, not figuratively, has more used motherboards laying around than I know what to do with).

It will be in all future CPUs from AMD, Intel and Qualcomm, basically every CPU manufacturer that wants to run Windows 11 will have it.

You're doing the very thing I already stated that too many armchair experts are doing - proclaiming definitive statements when we have no definitive proof.

If you meant all CPUs period, then we can already say that's false since there have been several desktop CPUs launched after Ryzen 6000 (e.g. the 5800X3D) that lack Pluton. If you meant CPU architecture, then that goes back to what I said above in that Pluton is not something that would be part of the actual compute die(s) and therefore we have a divergent architecture between server/desktop and mobile.

[Anux]

Very interesting...I do seem to recall Lisa Su saying they would move forward with Pluton starting Zen3+. Have they changed their mind, are they not advertising it, or is there some sort of problem? First I heard that this wasn't put in, the statements were quite clear from MS and AMD/Intel that it would be in every CPU moving forward from Zen3+.

Pluton is just hardware TPM integrated in the CPU with an even more fancy marketing campaign around it. Mostly because most external hardware and internal firmware implementations are vulnerable to certain attacks. But don't be fooled there will be attacks and backdoors for it like before.
Edit: and yes it will be in all future CPUs from AMD, Intel and Qualcomm, basically every CPU manufacturer that wants to run Windows 11 will have it.

[Mahboi]

Forgive me for being late to this thread...



I've been keeping tabs on this subject every once in a while for the last couple of months now (I did an OCD-level search on subject just two night ago) and, even now, there's been literally (not figuratively!) nothing stated anywhere that Ryzen 7000 / Zen4 actually has Pluton outside of some random internet commentors on places like Reddit proclaiming it does simply based on the fact that Ryzen 6000 / Zen3+ has it, or because places like TomsHardware keep stating things like "nothing has been confirmed but Pluton is expected."

The problem with all of these assumptions is that Ryzen 6000 / Zen3+ also has integrated USB4 right on the SOC and yet Ryzen 7000 / Zen4 does not and requires the motherboard manufacturer to include a separate additional chip on the motherboard for USB4 support - this was confirmed back at Computex. Therefore, something being implemented into Ryzen 6000 / Zen3+ very much does not mean that it's implemented into Ryzen 7000 / Zen4 - and something like USB4 would be much more of a "marketable bullet point", yet even that is not included.

So let's not get ahead of ourselves when literally (not figuratively!) nothing has been stated regarding Pluton considering that, in terms of how companies tend to advertise product feature-set (e.g. AMD did not advertise on previous generations of Ryzen/Zen that they did not support AVX-512 and basically just straight-up pretended that such a function didn't exist), it's looking more and more likely that Ryzen 7000 / Zen4 doesn't have Pluton.

Very interesting...I do seem to recall Lisa Su saying they would move forward with Pluton starting Zen3+. Have they changed their mind, are they not advertising it, or is there some sort of problem? First I heard that this wasn't put in, the statements were quite clear from MS and AMD/Intel that it would be in every CPU moving forward from Zen3+.