Upset that my school is now a "success story" for migration to Windows

[kraftman]

The problem is that in Windows all is solved in the GUI. In Linux you get to use a terminal. Everyone knows how to use a GUI (you simply use the mouse, the buttons are labeled, etc.) But almost no one knows how to use a terminal. Nothing is explained there. That's just not OK for an OS that advertises itself as user-friendly (which Ubuntu *does* advertise.)

It seems it's a good idea to fill a blueprint about this at Ubuntu's launchpad (or better at KDE blueprints, so many other distributions will get the feature).

I remember some chart somewhere that showed the percentage of returned laptops that came with Linux as default compared to those that came with Windows. Not sure where I saw it, but it was not pretty. People were practically running away from Linux after their experiences with it.

You can't blame Linux so many people are winboys who have even problems with installing packages using Synaptic. It's far more comfortable and easier then installing something on Windows. Even if you want to install third party application, because it's enough to click on a file.deb and package manager will take care of dependencies automatically. Rather then copying Windows Linux supporters should help Windows users in migration.

[curaga]

Everyone who says GUIs are easy hasn't used the Group Policy Manager.

[RealNC]

You can't blame Linux so many people are winboys who have even problems with installing packages using Synaptic.

You're making the mistake of applying hostile labels to those users. "Winboys". No, they are not winboys. They simply want to use their computer. Funny thing is, they don't even like Windows. They make jokes about it. But they see no other choice after trying Linux; Windows works more often than Linux for them. You can't blame people for that.

It's far more comfortable and easier then installing something on Windows. Even if you want to install third party application, because it's enough to click on a file.deb and package manager will take care of dependencies automatically. Rather then copying Windows Linux supporters should help Windows users in migration.

I agree. However, this is only "easy" when it works. When it doesn't, the user gets a punch in the face. The examples I provided (and they are real ones, I'm not making the stuff up) are a good indication of what happens quite often. To refresh your memory:

User wants to talk in Mumble but mic doesn't work. Sees in Google that he needs to use tkmixer. He installs it from the package manager. Runs it from the start menu. Nothing happens. No error message. No nothing. The program doesn't run.

User is left without microphone. He needs me to go fix it for him.

The above can't be fixed by synaptic and easy deps. It's an extremely basic OS mistake (not showing error messages), it's amazing Linux distros didn't solve it even after almost 20 years. One *has* to wonder why such fuck-ups exist till this day in every distro.

[mugginz]

Bottom line is that you cannot know in advance what people intent to do with their computer.

Yes, you cannot know for all time what they'll want to do no matter how clear and specific they are initially, but even if I install Linux initially where it's indicated if the users needs change down the track I'm completely happy to install Windows in its place if that's what makes sense.

Also, when they encounter the first problem, they don't know what to do. When they google it up, they are presented with cryptic terminal commands. And IMO, this is one of the things that turn people away from Linux: do not ever require users to use a terminal.

I find that when they run into their first problem I get a phone call but those wanting to sort out something themselves may find Google unsatisfactory whether the issue be one with a Windows or Linux install. Simply choosing Windows as your platform isn't a cure all unfortunately.

Not even Ubuntu does this correctly. They spend so much time hacking and patching the upstream sources beyond recognition without any real need to do so, but won't change them in some more useful way like having GUI error messages.

I'd disagree with your assessment that they don't need to play with upstreams code and I'm personally glad for the direction they're taking their distro in but each to their own I guess. I do acknowledge that too much fragmentation can be unhelpful for the Linux platform as a whole and wouldn't be too sad to see a consolidation of things in some ways.

HoN was an example. Why does nothing happen when they click its icon to start the game? Why doesn't the error message appear in some "couldn't run executable" GUI dialog? Why can't users configure their microphone without the need to run the terminal and use alsamixer?

Not very satisfactory but again I'd be short many thousands of dollars if users of the Windows platform didn't have issues where things should just work. I'm not excusing Kubuntu here but the use of Windows is no guarantee of fault free computing though. This is where knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each platform and selecting the best one for each use case comes into it. Results indicate that the general view is that most of the time Windows is the better of the two we're discussing here but I see a lot of desktops that Linux would suit better than the Windows that might be there at the time but I work with whichever I'm faced with.

The user I'm talking about was smart enough to use google. And there he found that he can install a mixer called "tkmixer", which he did. But when he tried to launch it from the K menu, it also wouldn't start. And also no error message. (When I went to his home and launched it from the terminal, it said "can't open mixer device", which I don't know how to fix anyway, but the user wasn't even presented with that error message in the GUI).

This highlights an example where the devs haven't done the best of jobs in itself doesn't suggest Linux is never appropriate. It does add some weight to my position that "when it comes to games, recommend Windows"

This is not user-friendly. These are simple things that should be provided in every OS. This is one of the reasons that make me think that Linux is not suitable for "normal" people who aren't interested in an education about Unix terminals.

Not suitable for people who like to game perhaps, but that doesn't cover everybody out there.

[mugginz]

The problem is that in Windows all is solved in the GUI.

Well I'd accept that mostly you use the GUI to fix things on Windows, but not always. There are times even on Windows you have to drop to a console. But your main point does largely stand.

In Linux you get to use a terminal. Everyone knows how to use a GUI (you simply use the mouse, the buttons are labeled, etc.)

Again, ask a noob how to fix a problem via the GUI and if they don't understand what's causing the problem the GUI often doesn't help them along either. If being able to fix stuff via a GUI was so natural I'd not expect to hear of issues in the Windows platform where supposedly its GUI makes everything easy and intuitive to solve.

But almost no one knows how to use a terminal. Nothing is explained there. That's just not OK for an OS that advertises itself as user-friendly (which Ubuntu *does* advertise.)

For Linux I'd say Ubuntu is fairly user friendly.

Recommending Ubuntu to users is the only realistic thing I can think of though. It's the most widely supported distro. When users want to install something that's not on the repos, at least there's hope an Ubuntu-compatible package is provided. Or else they would be battling with missing libraries and such.

This is one of the reasons I usually go with Ubuntu for a Linux desktop.

I remember some chart somewhere that showed the percentage of returned laptops that came with Linux as default compared to those that came with Windows. Not sure where I saw it, but it was not pretty. People were practically running away from Linux after their experiences with it.

If someone buys a laptop expecting to get Windows and gets something else, no matter how good the thing that isn't Windows is, they'll be inclined to want to raise an issue. There was also some conjecture are to what the real numbers were with Microsoft helpfully trying to score the most points there as well

Make no mistake about it. Network effects add a healthy amount to the stickyness of Windows position in the market place. One that isn't easily overcome.

I still hope Ubuntu will get its act right and provide "user friendliness" in things that are actually required to be user friendly, rather than their idiotic custom context menus and window decorations :-/

Over time the Linux desktop becomes more solid in more use cases and assuming this trend continues I see nothing but good things in the long run. I do think people are in too much of a rush to see Linux sweep the computing landscape by storm though. Just this week there were a few storys floating about how Linux had lost its chance for the desktop play. Pretty unimaginative and not well though out stuff from what I can tell and is just some bored bloggers trying to shoe horn the computing landscape into something it's not with their simple and inaccurate views of things.

[PsynoKhi0]

If someone buys a laptop expecting to get Windows and gets something else, no matter how good the thing that isn't Windows is, they'll be inclined to want to raise an issue. There was also some conjecture are to what the real numbers were with Microsoft helpfully trying to score the most points there as well

That's actually a point I have always wanted to see raised. Touting return rates is one thing, but as for WHY, suddenly everyone's mum.
Percentage figures are just scary when handled by PR people...

[kraftman]

You're making the mistake of applying hostile labels to those users. "Winboys". No, they are not winboys. They simply want to use their computer. Funny thing is, they don't even like Windows. They make jokes about it. But they see no other choice after trying Linux; Windows works more often than Linux for them. You can't blame people for that.

Nope, I meant winboys. They're winboys, because they were growing using windows only and it doesn't matter if they like it or not. If they'll be Linboys then you can imagine how they'll be shocked seeing something like Windows - wtf? I have to install antivirus, where's package management, where's the console?

I agree. However, this is only "easy" when it works. When it doesn't, the user gets a punch in the face. The examples I provided (and they are real ones, I'm not making the stuff up) are a good indication of what happens quite often. To refresh your memory:

User wants to talk in Mumble but mic doesn't work. Sees in Google that he needs to use tkmixer. He installs it from the package manager. Runs it from the start menu. Nothing happens. No error message. No nothing. The program doesn't run.

User is left without microphone. He needs me to go fix it for him.

It's not a Linux problem, but some application. I want to play Homeworld on Windows, but I can't. There's no any error, there's nothing. Why such fuck-ups exist?

The above can't be fixed by synaptic and easy deps. It's an extremely basic OS mistake (not showing error messages), it's amazing Linux distros didn't solve it even after almost 20 years. One *has* to wonder why such fuck-ups exist till this day in every distro.

I agreed with this, so why are you mentioning this now?

[RobbieAB]

There's a simple solution - don't use fglrx, but Open Source drivers. Using Linux you don't have to care about viruses and all of such mess.

Really?

Here is a quick thought experiment... You get mailed a word document by a colleague, you save it to your USB stick, you go off to give a professional presentation with the USB stick...

Anyone see a potential "virus" problem in this?

If you are moving from computer to computer, you need to worry about viruses. Your computers may not impacted directly, but it looks appallingly unprofessional to be serving as a transfer vector.

[RealNC]

It's not a Linux problem, but some application. I want to play Homeworld on Windows, but I can't. There's no any error, there's nothing. Why such fuck-ups exist?

This is extremely rare on Windows. On Linux for example, if you try to launch a binary you just downloaded and some lib is missing, you don't get an error message. On Windows it will say "morebloat.dll not found". Why not put this in a dialog on Linux too and say "libBloatware.so not found"?

It makes so much sense to tell the user about such errors. I wonder why this was never implemented by anyone.

[snuwoods]

I usually get errors from games if I'm missing a library.
And it's usually posted by the devs which libraries are used.