Google's Dart Language Approved By The ECMA

[sime2009]

There is more simple solution for all of this.
Firefox should implement PNaCl, so it becomes de facto standard, and than we could finally end this JavaScript dictatorship.

PNaCl isn't anywhere close to being a suitable replacement for JS. PNaCl might work better for cases like 3D games, but as a general replacement for use in scripting web pages it makes zero sense. The biggest problem being language interop, and the fact that many languages need their own runtime support and libraries. Can you imagine any non-trivial web page which pulls in multiple scripts from different sites (analytics, social buttons, embedded google maps etc etc) working on PNaCl? Does every 'script' get its own VM/sandbox? How can my code call the google map widget if they are both use PNaCl but are written in different languages? Languages barely agree on the simple things like primitve types, but everyone has their own idea about what a string is and what methods it has (if any), not to mention what an object is.

Just have a look at the native code world running on our desktops and servers. It is fragmented along language lines. Every language has their own set of libraries with massive duplication across the board. Calls across languages (i.e. Python calling C++ code) is painful and requires tons of bindings code and marshalling between data formats. It is a mess and a big part of the reason why many have moved away from native code to environments like the JVM, .Net CLR and yes, the browser and JavaScript itself.

[Pajn]

Dart better be one of the best designed languages in order to displace js, otherwise what's the point?

I would argue it is.
A while back I wrote a blog post with some unique great features of Dart http://rasmus.eneman.eu/dart-some-good-stuff/

AngularDart is also miles better than AngularJS (partly because of Dart and partly because they
had the ability to rethink some stuff) which creates an even better overall experience.

[sime2009]

As far as giving Google huge power over the web, I'm going to be very blunt here. They're the only ones out of everyone making browsers and the w3c to actually be trying to fix the web, while Mozilla is just playing NIH, and Microsoft and Apple are just siding with Mozilla to go against Google.

I think that is a very unfair assesment of what Mozilla has been doing. Mozilla have had for years the best JS support with respect to modern features. Still today they have the most complete implementation of ES6 ( http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/ ). Not to mention their work supporting and implementing new APIs, HTML5 and CSS features.

[Temlar]

PNaCl isn't anywhere close to being a suitable replacement for JS. PNaCl might work better for cases like 3D games, but as a general replacement for use in scripting web pages it makes zero sense. The biggest problem being language interop, and the fact that many languages need their own runtime support and libraries. Can you imagine any non-trivial web page which pulls in multiple scripts from different sites (analytics, social buttons, embedded google maps etc etc) working on PNaCl? Does every 'script' get its own VM/sandbox? How can my code call the google map widget if they are both use PNaCl but are written in different languages? Languages barely agree on the simple things like primitve types, but everyone has their own idea about what a string is and what methods it has (if any), not to mention what an object is.

Just have a look at the native code world running on our desktops and servers. It is fragmented along language lines. Every language has their own set of libraries with massive duplication across the board. Calls across languages (i.e. Python calling C++ code) is painful and requires tons of bindings code and marshalling between data formats. It is a mess and a big part of the reason why many have moved away from native code to environments like the JVM, .Net CLR and yes, the browser and JavaScript itself.

Yes that is true, every language will have it's own library(runtime is the same -> NaCl), but only because we want to make it like that, and we should have a chase to do that. And JS takes away that freedom to write web apps in any language. Libraries could be saved on pc, once u visit website, and sure, there would be some mess with all the libs(which are max couple of MBs per language) but i want that mess, that freedom to do stuff i want.

Just have a look at the native code world running on our desktops and servers. Nobody limits you in any way.

[sime2009]

but i want that mess, that freedom to do stuff i want.

Just have a look at the native code world running on our desktops and servers. Nobody limits you in any way.

I would much prefer a system where the base platform that everything has to agree on includes memory safety, garbage collection, and objects instead of what we now have on native desktops and servers which is some C data-types, raw memory addresses and C function calling style if you are lucky. It is just so much more useful.

[Temlar]

I would much prefer a system where the base platform that everything has to agree on includes memory safety, garbage collection, and objects instead of what we now have on native desktops and servers which is some C data-types, raw memory addresses and C function calling style if you are lucky. It is just so much more useful.

IMHO that is language's job to implement, like u do on desktop.
The thing is that JS is script language, which means that computer gets something made for people to read.
So u get larger files to transfer,slower speeds, etc. and to make that standard it feels stupid for me.

[Luke_Wolf]

I think that is a very unfair assesment of what Mozilla has been doing. Mozilla have had for years the best JS support with respect to modern features. Still today they have the most complete implementation of ES6 ( http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/ ). Not to mention their work supporting and implementing new APIs, HTML5 and CSS features.

Because trying to push Javascript everywhere is clearly helping advance the web as opposed to destroy it.

Further HTML5 is fundamentally flawed because like past revisions of HTML it's a loose standard and thus not a real standard but a suggestion, which almost nobody follows. XHTML2+ was the answer but well we know what happened with that...

[mrmcq2u]

Web components and the shadow Dom kind of show why its loose to me. Things have progressed incrementially since 5 was released and there won't be a 6. The standard will be incrementially improved and browser vendors will prototype new additions and implement current standards at their own pace. Who knows, maybe the community will have more of a say on what new tags we see in the core standard going forward thanks to these very improvements which make best use of the platform of the dom. Dart is interesting to me because it's designed around a different era of web development where developers can interact and extend the browser in a more powerful way.

seem more useful to me

Because trying to push Javascript everywhere is clearly helping advance the web as opposed to destroy it.

Further HTML5 is fundamentally flawed because like past revisions of HTML it's a loose standard and thus not a real standard but a suggestion, which almost nobody follows. XHTML2+ was the answer but well we know what happened with that...

[dragorth]

Interesting

I find it interesting that one of the knocks against Dart is the perception of it being a Google Proprietary language.

Firstly, this is surprising since Dart is developed under a BSD Licence, has been ratified as an ECMA standard, and under the ECMA TC52 they are clearly working on steering the Dart language through that process.

Secondly, it is surprising how few people remember that JavaScript started out this way, from Mozilla/AOL/Netscape, only they didn't start out as going for a standard, they used it as a feature differentiator.

PNaCl would not be a good fit for JavaScript. Firstly, Google, Microsoft and Mozilla have all spent a great deal of time and effort on optimizing their JITs for javascript, and for all of them to use PNaCL would require them to redo much of the work that has already been done. Also, Javascript, as well as Dart, are meant to be flexible at runtime, and designed for the Html5, while PNaCL is a compiled platform that is designed for specific use cases when these languages are not appropriate.

Were all the vendors to start supporting only PNaCL, you would suddenly have to have a 32bit, 64bit, and arm compiled version of your code, each for the Windows xp/7/8/8.1 Desktop platform (okay, not arm here), Windows 8/8.1 Not Metro Platform, 32bit and 64bit for Firefox on Windows, then on Linux, and then on OS X (and possibly iOS), then 32bit and 64bit versions for Chrome on Windows, then on Linux, then on Chromebooks, and on osx, not to mention Android, and I think I forgot some somewhere. Oh yeah, then there is Opera, and this is just the main English speaking Browsers. Or, Just write Javascript or Dart in the browser and the rest is abstracted away.

That, frankly, is a very scary scenario. Look around online at what people are currently putting themselves through to not have to deal with that for cross platform apps, which is one of the main niches that Dart and the HTML5 platform is filling.

Now, personally, I do want you to have the choice to do something crazy like that, but that is not the path for me.

[Luke_Wolf]

Were all the vendors to start supporting only PNaCL, you would suddenly have to have a 32bit, 64bit, and arm compiled version of your code, each for the Windows xp/7/8/8.1 Desktop platform (okay, not arm here), Windows 8/8.1 Not Metro Platform, 32bit and 64bit for Firefox on Windows, then on Linux, and then on OS X (and possibly iOS), then 32bit and 64bit versions for Chrome on Windows, then on Linux, then on Chromebooks, and on osx, not to mention Android, and I think I forgot some somewhere. Oh yeah, then there is Opera, and this is just the main English speaking Browsers. Or, Just write Javascript or Dart in the browser and the rest is abstracted away.

That, frankly, is a very scary scenario. Look around online at what people are currently putting themselves through to not have to deal with that for cross platform apps, which is one of the main niches that Dart and the HTML5 platform is filling.

Now, personally, I do want you to have the choice to do something crazy like that, but that is not the path for me.

Wrong. wrong. wrong. First off NaCl is OS independent. Second off PNaCl is Architecture independent hence why it's called Portable NaCl, and the difference is that instead of the more "traditional" web workflow you're operating with a more desktop style workflow and you're downloading essentially LLVM IR as opposed to HTML. Basically when you think about PNaCl, imagine Flash if it wasn't a poorly written trainwreck and only had ~ 5-10% overhead vs native code, and you could write in any language that LLVM has a front-end for.