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Python 3.13 Beta 2 Released For Testing The Experimental JIT & Other New Features

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  • #31
    Originally posted by CTown View Post

    Classes are a part of Object Oriented Programming used to represent objects and JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) is just a human readable and easily storable format. For better or worse JSON is the format chosen to be sent over the internet or the output of many web APIs. It would make sense at this point for every API to support loading JSON as a native format. (Though there is a push to have APIs directly output HTML again server side with HTMLX).
    It's worth noting that JSON, when used from JavaScript with the standard JSON libraries, behaves in the same way as Python's JSON library. Typically, you have to write a function to handle loading/saving class data in JavaScript. So Python's JSON library is, I think, much closer to Javascript's intent than something like Ruby's to_json implementation.

    If you want serializing of classes to JSON files, you need to do some extra work and make a protocol because JSON only allows for native JavaScript Objects, as per the name JSON: ints, floats, bools. nil, strings, lists, and "objects", where "object" means something close to a dict with string keys only.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by habilain View Post

      It's worth noting that JSON, when used from JavaScript with the standard JSON libraries, behaves in the same way as Python's JSON library. Typically, you have to write a function to handle loading/saving class data in JavaScript. So Python's JSON library is, I think, much closer to Javascript's intent than something like Ruby's to_json implementation.

      If you want serializing of classes to JSON files, you need to do some extra work and make a protocol because JSON only allows for native JavaScript Objects, as per the name JSON: ints, floats, bools. nil, strings, lists, and "objects", where "object" means something close to a dict with string keys only.
      You make a great point. I guess I'm too used to Pydantic and Jackson when used in web frameworks.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by tenchrio View Post
        Plenty of software were I didn't hear it breaking things like Blender, Krita etc etc​
        In fact so far you only mentioned Kodi and that is the only software that even got mentioned in this entire thread.


        I assume that you are referring to this issue from Friday May 3rd, the problem seems to be solely in Python 3.12 and already has a pull request going to fix it since Monday May 6th (so much for the claims they don't attempt to fix anything). Not all addons seem to be affected and it is addon specific, not Kodi itself so Kodi still works with that version of Python and so do certain addons. Mind you that the pull request is also a backport of code already present in Python 3.13. So no a python update didn't break Kodi, it broke addons.

        And did you seriously just attempted Argumentum ad populum with Software? There is plenty of morons here on Phoronix claiming all types of bullshit, doesn't make it true in the slightest.


        You mentioned one program and only 1 time it broke. That not a long history that is a mild inconvenience and in this day and age with multiple container solutions being shipped with a distro, its barely even a problem for end users (be it Ubuntu snaps or PopOs Flatpaks), you are exaggerating your claim and worst of all are giving advice for a field you didn't even partake in nor are going to. All of this doesn't take away any of Python's strength like readability, easy to code, easy to learn and a large amount of libraries to fit your needs which matter a lot more in rapid development.
        Unfortunately that patch didn't solve the problem even when it first appeared. And the last time I tried it two of four hunks were detected as reverse patches because they'd already been applied to the code, while the other two hunks had not. So I tried applying the unimplemented hunks and the problem remained unresolved.

        I also attempted removing the add-ons some had speculated were responsible for the problem, but again the problem persisted.

        As for Argumentum ad populum your argument is that because you haven't experienced problems with Python they don't exist, so both of us are simply relating our observations and experiences.

        And of course I'm offering Kodi as an example as it's the only software I'm attempting to run affected by the problem at this time.

        In any case, you're saying there are no problems with Python and in your experience if there are they are quickly resolved. And I and many others are saying our experiences are the opposite.

        However the irrefutable bottom line is that as of this moment Python has broken Kodi, as it has broken many other applications after supposedly minor updates.

        "I'm not interested in arguing, as reality does the arguing for us."
        SearingTruth

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        • #34
          Originally posted by muncrief View Post

          Unfortunately that patch didn't solve the problem even when it first appeared. And the last time I tried it two of four hunks were detected as reverse patches because they'd already been applied to the code, while the other two hunks had not. So I tried applying the unimplemented hunks and the problem remained unresolved.
          The person that made the issue literally says that the patch fixes their issue. Stop lying that you applied it.

          Originally posted by muncrief View Post
          I also attempted removing the add-ons some had speculated were responsible for the problem, but again the problem persisted.
          Did you try without any of the addons and slowly build up to see which addons are affected?
          That was rethorical, I know you didn't.

          Originally posted by muncrief View Post
          As for Argumentum ad populum your argument is that because you haven't experienced problems with Python they don't exist, so both of us are simply relating our observations and experiences.​
          Nice cop out but no, you are making a claim that requires evidence, so supply the evidence. You are also asking me to prove a negative, I can't prove the non existence of a "python compatibility problem" anymore that I can disprove the existence of unicorns.
          What's next I need to believe the earth is flat, the moon is hollow and 5G will control my mind if I vaccinate just because a substantial amount of idiots believe in those things?

          You have 1 problem yet claim python has some sort of massive problem making it a bad choice for addon development to the point you even discourage it (despite not being a developer yourself). I call bullshit and am asking you to prove it.

          Originally posted by muncrief View Post
          And of course I'm offering Kodi as an example as it's the only software I'm attempting to run affected by the problem at this time.

          In any case, you're saying there are no problems with Python and in your experience if there are they are quickly resolved. And I and many others are saying our experiences are the opposite..​
          The problem only started existing last month and it is so far the only example of an issue you can give. Your "experience" is literally based on a month long issue that only existed this year last month, I would hardly call that "experience". Not to mention that it seems only Kodi and Wechat are affected while dozens of other software that use Python for addon implementations aren't affected at all, not just that but it doesn't even affect all Kodi addons.

          And what distro are you running that you are already on Python 3.12? Considering Kodi is home theater software the most logical thing to do is to run it on Ubuntu or Debian, you know stable Systems that don't even update the Python major version unless they have to or if the system does a major update themselves (and all security patches are backported to older Python versions anyway). Ubuntu 22.04 LTS is still on Python 3.10 and won't upgrade to 24.04 until August 2024 unless you force it which is generally discouraged and even then 22.04 is still supported until April 2027.

          If you run it on a rolling release like Arch then at least have the knowledge (or "experience" I guess) you can install multiple Python versions and can swap between them (even on Ubuntu and Debian this can be done) or update to the 3.13 beta which wasn't affected by the one issue you mentioned. Or just setup Kodi with its Flatpak since it comes with its own Python version. I would assume "a retired hardware/firmware/software R&D engineer" could easily apply any of these solutions, especially one with "experience".

          Originally posted by muncrief View Post
          However the irrefutable bottom line is that as of this moment Python has broken Kodi, as it has broken many other applications after supposedly minor updates.
          No it hasn't broken Kodi, it broke the addons. The irrefutable bottom line is that you can't even seem to distinguish the two nor that you can even name a single "other" application despite your continuous claim of there being "many".
          And if Python is truly that problematic why not go for an alternative to Kodi that doesn't use it?
          You're telling me that despite Kodi using python for the last 10+ years (as far as their Wiki goes, on mentioning it) and that you have so much "experience" with it breaking due to the Python version, you didn't even bother searching for an alternative and are now affected by an issue from last month?
          Hell why is there no Kodi fork that even attempts to remove Python to replace it with a different scripting language (hint:it's because developers don't agree with you)?

          Originally posted by muncrief View Post
          "I'm not interested in arguing, as reality does the arguing for us."
          SearingTruth
          Too bad you are devoid of being able to accept let alone interpret reality.
          Devs like Python that is the reality, you don't because you had 1 issue that is not just fixable but even avoidable in multiple ways, the reality is that you have a skill issue and incredibly bad reasoning skills if you think an entire programming language should be avoided due to 1 issue you had that happened last month in 1 piece of software and is already patched in the latest version days after someone discovered it.
          Last edited by tenchrio; 12 June 2024, 04:32 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by blackshard View Post

            Perhaps you didn't deal with nodejs and the npm dependencies mayhem, but anyway...

            I don't know what to say about your Python libraries, everyone codes as bad as he/she wants. Whenever you use external libraries, maybe not exactly well-maintained, it's easy it happens whenever you upgrade the environment.

            But hey, I'm not Python lawyer here, so if that's your experience, I respect that. My experience is radically different, so I can't say where the difference lies.
            skill issue

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            • #36
              Originally posted by gothfather View Post

              skill issue
              exactly nobody cares about your pathetic lack of experience with NVIDIA drivers LOL

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Kemosabe View Post

                Yes, thank god. Remove all that old crap. I hope this includes the abomination called argparse one day.
                Just force all these lazy people doing only the bare minimum to update their crap.
                This is a deranged mindset.

                "Maintenance" is a concession to nature, and the ideal amount of it is zero. This is not possible for physical objects, which wear out, but computers can replicate bits exactly. The only reason software ever requires maintenance is because a real human person has created the need for it by callousness, recklessness, or malice.

                The only way for a finite number of programmers to produce ever more useful software is for finished programs to keep working.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by tenchrio View Post
                  The person that made the issue literally says that the patch fixes their issue. Stop lying that you applied it.
                  ...
                  Ha!

                  Oh my goodness tenchrio.

                  I enjoy civil debate, but when others are incapable of that and simply begin hurling insults I just let them be. In any case, feel free to toss out any other disparagements that make you feel better. I'll let you have the last vitriolic words if you wish

                  "Thank goodness they attacked the messenger, instead of the message."
                  SearingTruth

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by muncrief View Post

                    Ha!

                    Oh my goodness tenchrio.

                    I enjoy civil debate, but when others are incapable of that and simply begin hurling insults I just let them be. In any case, feel free to toss out any other disparagements that make you feel better. I'll let you have the last vitriolic words if you wish

                    "Thank goodness they attacked the messenger, instead of the message."
                    SearingTruth
                    So basically muncrief, you are not denying you didn't apply the patch and now just make this cringey response, got it.
                    Keep living in your imaginary world where you think you aren't cringe and programmers should listen to a guy that doesn't understand issue trackers, doesn't know how to code and bases their opinion on a single program.

                    Also isn't it funny how you can't actually disprove that so you went for my character, you literally went for the messenger instead of the message and you even ended with a cringe version of that methaphoric phrase XD Kodi is open source, if you really had the issue you could even go to that issue and reopen it yourself, provided of course you can prove that patch doesn't fix you issue but instead you cry about "insults" because I called out your blatant lie.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                      I've never had so many issues with anything else than Python. And I mean for code that is not mine, so please shut it with "update your legacy code".

                      I'm trying to use Python, for build systems, build scripts (some projects use it), AI training, AI inference, etc. Other people's code.

                      ALL OF THESE HAVE GIVEN ME DEPENDENCY/BREAKAGE NIGHTMARES AT SOME POINT.

                      And no, it's not just me, literally by far the most breaking shit I see posted as bugs in such projects, is because of Python. Not Javascript, not ANY OTHER LANGUAGE. It's JUST Python. AI projects in particular are FULL of bug reports/complaints of Python errors that are due to dependency/breakage.

                      I have friends who aren't programmers and don't know how to code at all. But when they look at a project and see it's written in Python they simply close the tab. That's how bad it is. Even for users.
                      Skill issue

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