Google Engineers Lift The Lid On Carbon - A Hopeful Successor To C++

[kpedersen]

Carbon is a close superset of C++. This might actually have a chance of succeeding C++.

It is basically Rust with a C and C++ compiler bolted on. No need for creating / maintaining bindings or marshalling data via the FFI.

[JMB9]

There kind of has been a mass exodus of C++ users to Rust.
I don't know why people still keep lumping Rust in with the rest of the run-of-the-mill Better C++(TM) languages, Rust is so widely adopted it's getting into Linux. Like I feel like people overlook that for some reason.
The simple fact of the matter is that C++ can't be cleaned up, we need a clean break. A "bandaid language" like this doesn't make sense to me, many C++ projects, including Google's Chromium, are incorporating Rust by finding ways to interop it with C++. Carbon makes no sense, it has a niche application of being a "bandaid" over C++, if you're going to extend your C++ codebase with another language, or rewrite any of your C++ in another language, then it may as well be Rust anyway. They should just keep working on ways to bridge Rust and C++, like they've been doing in Chromium, and work with Rust to try and stabilize it's ABI.
Or we could also just come to terms with the fact that C++ is the new COBOL and if you want to maintain a C++ project then you're now considered a special and valuable individual for knowing this language that only governments use. We're not at that point yet, but we're rapidly approaching it.

I really doubt Rust will get so popular Cobol still is in 2022 - and I don't say that I appreciate Cobol to be that famous, but still ... there is a reason.
C and C++ are still the languages of best compiler coverage - most portable - and available for all architectures (using GCC - not LLVM/Clang).
The 1st argument for Rust in Linux was that drivers are written poorly (and it can be written great - if one knows how to do it) and that Rust
force some ugly mistakes out. There was no hint anyone would expect Linux to change C for Rust code entirely.
Like drivers for Linux also Mesa is about to accept Rust (if I got that correctly).
But C++ programmers??? Have not heard that KDE will switch from C++ to Rust - and also one of those larger game engines to swap
C++ for Rust ...
So what high quality bigger project is out there demonstrating the quality of Rust right now? And how would this be possible if only
LLVM has a Rust compiler right now - GCC may come soon - but not yet there. So Rust is still at its very beginning.
The only big project is Firefox to my notion - so one can give some expamples if I am wrong - and FF is really a bad written program.
Short on memory - exit FF and restart it - problem gone.
So I would be more impressed to see fast and good programs with sourcecode in that language then people shouting "it is secure".
But we will see how things evolve ... thinking of Java as a good programming language as there are a lot of apps out there ...
that's not how it works ...
Otherwise we would have all ended using Basic when starting in the 1980ies ... and not using Pascal, C or Fortran (maybe even Cobol ).

[Ironmask]

I really doubt Rust will get so popular Cobol still is in 2022 - and I don't say that I appreciate Cobol to be that famous, but still ... there is a reason.
C and C++ are still the languages of best compiler coverage - most portable - and available for all architectures (using GCC - not LLVM/Clang).
The 1st argument for Rust in Linux was that drivers are written poorly (and it can be written great - if one knows how to do it) and that Rust
force some ugly mistakes out. There was no hint anyone would expect Linux to change C for Rust code entirely.
Like drivers for Linux also Mesa is about to accept Rust (if I got that correctly).
But C++ programmers??? Have not heard that KDE will switch from C++ to Rust - and also one of those larger game engines to swap
C++ for Rust ...
So what high quality bigger project is out there demonstrating the quality of Rust right now? And how would this be possible if only
LLVM has a Rust compiler right now - GCC may come soon - but not yet there. So Rust is still at its very beginning.
The only big project is Firefox to my notion - so one can give some expamples if I am wrong - and FF is really a bad written program.
Short on memory - exit FF and restart it - problem gone.
So I would be more impressed to see fast and good programs with sourcecode in that language then people shouting "it is secure".
But we will see how things evolve ... thinking of Java as a good programming language as there are a lot of apps out there ...
that's not how it works ...
Otherwise we would have all ended using Basic when starting in the 1980ies ... and not using Pascal, C or Fortran (maybe even Cobol ).

The issue is that it's inevitable all of those projects will be rewritten. Either piece-by-piece or all at once. KDE isn't being rewritten right now because it's still modern and maintainable, but that won't last forever. All software eventually needs to be rewritten. Look at Xorg, it's gotten so bad that they had to make a whole new standard entirely. Linux has also been gradually completely rewritten since it first began.
And just using KDE as an example of one project not being rewritten doesn't mean there are zero projects that are being rewritten. Firefox is an obvious one, but even Chromium is starting to find ways to integrate Rust into their C++ codebase, which I'm pretty sure is a slow but steady piece-by-piece rewrite attempt, just like Firefox. There's also projects like uutils.
So, if a project is going to be rewritten, they might decide to use a different language. It might not be Rust, but new C++ projects are shrinking by the day. Nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

[rabcor]

C(arbon)

C++ ain't broken, but everyone keeps trying to fix it.

Proper programmers are a dying breed anyways, most of the coders these days shouldn't be trusted with something as versatile and easy to fuck-up as C++, what we really need is a really simple language like python but paired with an interpreter that allows it to run almost as fast as decently written C++ code would have.

I don't know what sort of magic it would take, but that's what we need. A lang like python that babysits you and holds your hand and doesn't let you fuck up too bad, even forces you to format your code well, but fast like C++.

[piotrj3]

Nah, this is a good one, we need a real modern alternative to C++ and Rust ain't it, Carbon seems like Rust but without its borrow checker - exactly what we need.

Mommy, I am writing unsafe code that i don't understand and compiler is mean to meee, I don't like that compiler, I want to pretend i know everything better.

[piotrj3]

Carbon sounds in some way good that it wants maximum compability with existing C++ codebases (something Rust cannot achieve due to fundamental diffrences).

However question for me is more of sort does advantages of Carbon seems to exceed modern C++ enough to justify mixing another language.

[Mahboi]

Ironmask Actually agreed. On my list of things that should start being pushed to the grave, C++ and its general bloat is in the top 3 at least.

Impossible as a clean break might be for corporations, legacy codebases and so many individuals, there is no continuity option. C++ must die. Age takes living beings and constructs for a reason, and undying languages are proof of it. C++ is so wrinkled with "non-breaking fixes and upgrades" that it's making old forest witches look like young maidens.

[Ironmask]

C(arbon)
what we really need is a really simple language like python but paired with an interpreter that allows it to run almost as fast as decently written C++ code would have.

I don't know what sort of magic it would take, but that's what we need. A lang like python that babysits you and holds your hand and doesn't let you fuck up too bad, even forces you to format your code well, but fast like C++.

So, an ML like OCaml or F#?

[tildearrow]

Late typing ("var x: type = val;")? Nah, I'm fine with C++ then...

[sinepgib]

Nah, this is a good one, we need a real modern alternative to C++ and Rust ain't it, Carbon seems like Rust but without its borrow checker - exactly what we need.

That's the worst of both worlds. The borrow checker is the feature to like in Rust. Everything else in it is... OK, I guess, but I wouldn't migrate for it. If you're gonna migrate for syntax sugar alone, then you may as well aim higher and hope for some Python-like language.