Linux Kernel's Preliminary Rust Code Seeing 64-bit POWER Support

[mdedetrich]

Which is a good thing, isn't it? It seems strange that people expect the pilot of the aircraft to be trained, sane and sober, and would not agree to get onboard just because he knows where is the autopilot engagement button located. They expect lawyer to be well trained and experienced and would not entrust their case to a person just because he knows that there is a library with all the information he might need. And again they would not entrust their health and life to a doctor who is confident just because there are expensive machines in that hospital.

If you want set back the industry 20 years due to massively reducing the pool of programmers then sure. Also do note that even those 1% of programmers also do make mistakes, its just very rare. Humans are fallible and they do mistakes every now and then, mathematical theorem/algorithms aren't. Also do note that the state theorem prover (in this case the linear type system that tracks memory model in Rust) is just verifying what you should be doing correctly anyways, its a tool that is showing you that what you write is correct. It doesn't cover everything (for example circular references in data structures like graphs) but for what it does cover its correct.

In other words there is no reason not to use this tool, the previous example in this post of using carabiners/straps/ropes when climbing a mountain is an apt analogy. The cost is extremely minimal but it makes a massive impact in terms of safety, sure there may be those 1% of pro freestyle climbers that don't need such equipment but that is not a reason to do everything manually for the sakes of doing everything manually.

[jjkk]

By both I mean a seasoned practicing doctor with uses the latest tech and tools too work more safely.
As I wrote in the latest post, I don't care how "seasoned" is some, if you are stuck in the past with you tools/knowledge I prefer some with is less "seasoned" but more update.

Can has understend you. I encourage you to watch a movie. Is good. Totally recommend.

[dragonn]

Because the person can hardly be a seasoned practicing doctor and a yesterday's "D" student at the same time. That was the point of the analogy.

By both I mean a seasoned practicing doctor with uses the latest tech and tools too work more safely.
As I wrote in the latest post, I don't care how "seasoned" is some, if you are stuck in the past with you tools/knowledge I prefer some with is less "seasoned" but more update.

[jjkk]

Why you can not have both?

Because the person can hardly be a seasoned practicing doctor and a yesterday's "D" student at the same time. That was the point of the analogy.

Languages like C come from old even "barbaric" years in the IT.

And any sane doctor still measures your body temperature with a barbaric thermometer and inspects you with his barbaric eyes before even thinking about any prescriptions.

If every C programmer had a surgeon levels of skill than you would have probably 1% of the current C programmer pool.

Which is a good thing, isn't it? It seems strange that people expect the pilot of the aircraft to be trained, sane and sober, and would not agree to get onboard just because he knows where is the autopilot engagement button located. They expect lawyer to be well trained and experienced and would not entrust their case to a person just because he knows that there is a library with all the information he might need. And again they would not entrust their health and life to a doctor who is confident just because there are expensive machines in that hospital.

At the same time it sounds like you do not see anything distrustful in fact that some people want to call themselves programmers and even participate in OS kernel development just because there are modern tools.

[torsionbar28]

Those tools do exist. They're usually extremely expensive and most doctors and hospitals can't afford them which is why they're one of the primary reasons medical expenses are so high in developed countries and why insurance will front MRIs and CAT scans -- they have to be used to be billed; but they're also a one time thing that can be charged for, doesn't require an actual doctor to do the work, and they lead to charging you for more if they find something.

Machines like that are already expected to be in hospitals and they spend hundreds of thousands per machine and they have to upgrade them every few years because the companies that make them operate on planned obsolescence....meaning revision 6 just lost support so you should buy revision 7 or 8 for $400,000 where you might get 2% higher resolution of the pinkie toe. Revision 7 loses support in 2 years and requires a Windows XP PC so you should spend the extra $100,000 on Rev. 8 because it has 4 more years of service and the software has been updated to Windows 7. Yes, we know. Keep them both off the internet.

That is what "mandatory in developed countries" means. It means planned obsolescence. The medical device industry is awful. If you think Intel 14+++++++++nm planned obsolescence is bad, you should look into the shit the medical hardware people do. Intel is only borrowing their play book.

$400k is nothing. The #1 reason medical services are so expensive, at least in the US, is lawsuits. Doctors are human and medical mistakes do happen. A multi-million dollar settlement is of course warranted for major medical mistakes that result in permanent damage/disability or death.

However, multi-million dollar settlements are absolutely not warranted for very minor medical mistakes that result only in inconvenience, with no lasting harm. For example, forgetting a surgical sponge inside a patient during surgery. They bring the person back, open them up again, and retrieve the sponge. Person spends a few days recovering, and it's no harm no foul... except that people are greedy and will typically always sue in such a scenario and walk away with many $millions, rather than a more reasonable sum like $25k or something like that.

There have been many studies on the matter, so there really is no debate around this. Lawsuits are the #1 medical expense in the US, and the reason why health insurance costs so much. Obama had the opportunity to fix this, and failed miserably. In the original draft of Obamacare, it included tort reform, to eliminate all these far-too-large payouts for minor mistakes. But being a lawyer, Obama of course caved to the pressure of the Trial Lawyers associations, who aggressively lobbied against tort reform. Trial lawyers of course make their money filing lawsuits. So next time you're wondering why health care is so damn expensive, you can thank Obama for his health care train wreck.

[skeevy420]

Except that this mentality has created numerous amounts of avoidable bugs in C which wouldn't have existed in Rust because the program would have failed to compile. If every C programmer had a surgeon levels of skill than you would have probably 1% of the current C programmer pool.

And I am pretty sure if such a tool for surgeons exited and the fact that we are dealing with medicine/peoples lives, it would be mandatory to use in every developed country.

Those tools do exist. They're usually extremely expensive and most doctors and hospitals can't afford them which is why they're one of the primary reasons medical expenses are so high in developed countries and why insurance will front MRIs and CAT scans -- they have to be used to be billed; but they're also a one time thing that can be charged for, doesn't require an actual doctor to do the work, and they lead to charging you for more if they find something.

Machines like that are already expected to be in hospitals and they spend hundreds of thousands per machine and they have to upgrade them every few years because the companies that make them operate on planned obsolescence....meaning revision 6 just lost support so you should buy revision 7 or 8 for $400,000 where you might get 2% higher resolution of the pinkie toe. Revision 7 loses support in 2 years and requires a Windows XP PC so you should spend the extra $100,000 on Rev. 8 because it has 4 more years of service and the software has been updated to Windows 7. Yes, we know. Keep them both off the internet.

That is what "mandatory in developed countries" means. It means planned obsolescence. The medical device industry is awful. If you think Intel 14+++++++++nm planned obsolescence is bad, you should look into the shit the medical hardware people do. Intel is only borrowing their play book.

[mdedetrich]

Rust is more like a computer assisted surgery where it has a sensor that makes sure the cutting laser won't go off in your eye where as C just has a laser button with no protective sensors at all. In either case it is up the the surgeon (programmer) to have the necessary experience and skills to perform a good surgery (write good code) regardless of the tools (languages) they're working with; only with one there won't be any accidental blinding unless the surgeon turns off the safety switch (intentionally writes unsafe Rust code).

Except that this mentality has created numerous amounts of avoidable bugs in C which wouldn't have existed in Rust because the program would have failed to compile. If every C programmer had a surgeon levels of skill than you would have probably 1% of the current C programmer pool.

And I am pretty sure if such a tool for surgeons exited and the fact that we are dealing with medicine/peoples lives, it would be mandatory to use in every developed country.

[jjkk]

Rust is more like a computer assisted surgery where it has a sensor that makes sure the cutting laser won't go off in your eye where as C just has a laser button with no protective sensors at all. In either case it is up the the surgeon (programmer) to have the necessary experience and skills to perform a good surgery (write good code) regardless of the tools (languages) they're working with; only with one there won't be any accidental blinding unless the surgeon turns off the safety switch (intentionally writes unsafe Rust code).

Sounds reasonable, unless the case when the surgeon is actually operating someone's eyeball.

[skeevy420]

If you think that this is appropriate analogy, let me give you mine: suppose you are in need of surgical operation, who would you prefer to perform it? A seasoned surgeon who really knows what he is doing or a D-student, but with his hands tied in such way that he can not move sharp tool outside the operating area "ensuring" that his actions are "safe".

More of a silly analogy: the seasoned surgeon is operating in an established institution which was there for 50 years and will still be there in foreseeable future, the D-student is operating in a private commercial entity who only say "no warranties, but trust us, we know what we are doing" and "everything is subject to change in any time, but again, trust us, we know what we are doing".

Rust is more like a computer assisted surgery where it has a sensor that makes sure the cutting laser won't go off in your eye where as C just has a laser button with no protective sensors at all. In either case it is up the the surgeon (programmer) to have the necessary experience and skills to perform a good surgery (write good code) regardless of the tools (languages) they're working with; only with one there won't be any accidental blinding unless the surgeon turns off the safety switch (intentionally writes unsafe Rust code).

[dragonn]

If you think that this is appropriate analogy, let me give you mine: suppose you are in need of surgical operation, who would you prefer to perform it? A seasoned surgeon who really knows what he is doing or a D-student, but with his hands tied in such way that he can not move sharp tool outside the operating area "ensuring" that his actions are "safe".

Why you can not have both? I would chose a "seasoned surgeon" with knows that even he can make mistakes and uses safety tools available to him so you don't get hurt.
If I hire an electrical and he starts working without doing proper safety precautions I don't care how experience he is, I will immediately fire him.

That is my personal opinion but Rust isn't some new fancy tool with does "restrict" you options, Rust is how things should be done in the modern days.
Languages like C come from old even "barbaric" years in the IT.
Again referring to you example, I think the proper way to use it would be saying: do you want a "seasoned surgeon" with knowledge stuck in the 80-90' or a "d-student" with has learned the latest tools and how things should be done? I choose the "d-student" in this case.