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LLVM Developers Plotting Path Forward For Moving To A New Git Branch Name

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  • Alliancemd
    replied
    The virtue signaling stuff that happens in US is annoying as f**k...
    Instead of searching for ways to be offended by technical jargon, go to the protests or do something that has an effect...

    Leave a comment:


  • skeevy420
    replied
    Originally posted by geearf View Post
    Instead of worrying about the use of colors in good or bad terms, wouldn't it be better to stop alluding to people by the color of their skin instead? Why do people need to express what their color is (even more when it's usually wrong, for instance even Albinos are not white...)? Don't we already have enough differences that we need to emphasize color and divide us even more?
    I used to work with a guy who would interrupt a person in the middle of a story to ask what color everybody in the story was. It got old really fast because 99% of the time the answer was something like "It doesn't matter what color the guy who accidentally dropped a bag of weed in the middle of the gas station was. All that mattered was that I provided cover from the cops while he pretended to tie his shoes while doing a sock-tuck."

    Coworker: So what color was he?

    Me: Really, dude?

    Coworker: Yeah. I need to be able to picture it all in my mind.

    Me: Well he was Mexican or some from of Latio going on his skin tone and accent.

    Coworker: Oh, I was picturing a black guy. So anyways....

    Now, before y'all start thinking racist thoughts, my coworker was a black guy and his imagination defaulted to imagining black people in situations so he'd ask about color to get a correct picture in his mind versus defaulting to his perceived stereotypes and assumptions. Asking about color works both ways.

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  • curfew
    replied
    Originally posted by geearf View Post
    Instead of worrying about the use of colors in good or bad terms, wouldn't it be better to stop alluding to people by the color of their skin instead? Why do people need to express what their color is (even more when it's usually wrong, for instance even Albinos are not white...)?
    This is where the real cultural context steps in. This ideology is known as identity politics and it means that people as a mass are programmed to willful segregation based on perceived "empowering" traits in personality or physical appearance etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics

    Identity politics is a term coined by the Combahee River Collective in 1977.[1] It refers to a political approach wherein a person or people of a particular religion, race, social background, class and other identifying factors will form exclusive socio-political alliances, moving away from broad-based, bipartisan politics to support and follow political movements which share a particular identifying quality with them.
    I am highlighting the word exclusive as often identity politics fanatics claim to be fighting for "inclusivity", also mentioned in this LLVM debacle, which of course means including everyone except those who are different.
    Last edited by curfew; 06-20-2020, 10:12 AM.

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  • acobar
    replied
    I guess, it will appease those people that are always looking for discords, which the main grudge is actually against the world. Well, at least until they find a new thing to complain about. Rinse and repeat.

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  • drjohnnyfever
    replied
    Well that's interesting. It never would have occured to me that the LLVM project were a bunch of fascists until now.

    But seriously. Hiding away from specific words that have meanings beyond enslaving human beings I think inadvertently continues to legitimize their use in that context. Soon "master" will only have one meaning and we'll go around trying to invent new words to replace it and eventually those will be dropped too for being a "substitute for a racist word" which is also bad.

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  • geearf
    replied
    Instead of worrying about the use of colors in good or bad terms, wouldn't it be better to stop alluding to people by the color of their skin instead? Why do people need to express what their color is (even more when it's usually wrong, for instance even Albinos are not white...)? Don't we already have enough differences that we need to emphasize color and divide us even more?

    As for master/slave, yeah I'm not against changing that, maybe it'd be nice and more correct, but I'm sure there are far more pressing issues than how these 2 words are used in unrelated fields.

    Leave a comment:


  • kescherPh
    replied
    To amend my inital comment: I'd be fine with such a change if it had better reasoning behind it. For instance, I can think of other reasons to change "master" to something else. Maybe another term could be more clear, such as "main".

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  • cesarcafe
    replied
    Incredible. I prefer it over GCC, but seeing how clueless they are makes me feel embarrassed for them.

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  • skeevy420
    replied
    Originally posted by zeehio View Post

    This could make sense to me, assuming that there actually are non Euro-American developers confused by the terminology and not willing to learn it. So far they have learnt at least a bit of English, so I think this is a smaller challenge in comparison.

    The next step in that direction would be to make localizable programming language keywords, such as "if", "while", "for"... Just because they are in English and discriminate non-English speakers. This happens in Excel formulas, by the way. Variables should be allowed to contain any Unicode character, as happens in python3 if I remember correctly.

    Try programming using French, Spanish or any second language you have a basic knowledge of, and you will feel how many non-native English speakers feel when they start to program.

    International communication would be much harder. Code would be harder to share. The cons outweigh the benefits, in my opinion. And then, since we are choosing to stick to English, I don't think it makes sense to drop white-light-good black-dark-bad semantics because they are Euro-American, it's just a detail, and very minor in comparison to learning the basics of a whole language.
    ​​
    To me, you're pointing out that programming languages need better internationalization support more than you are swaying my thoughts on terminology changes based on generic, culture-less terms.

    Since most modern (text) editors and libraries should be able to convert language keywords on-the-fly, English-only programming should be a problem of the 90s that we (y'all if we're being honest) should be able to solve today if we really wanted to. Comments would be difficult, as is any actual translation, but swapping a keyword's language should be pretty straight forward. I see more difficulties in going from left-to-right to right-to-left languages and all the reformatting possibly involved with that than I do keyword swaps. User-named variables would be an issue, too, but there are multiple ways to deal with that (don't translate, user set translation lists, various auto-YMMV translation methods).

    That said, while the whole black/white, good/bad thing is damn-near a universally held thing across a bunch of cultures, to want to change it now because of woke culture and nothing but woke culture is fucking retarded. To want to change it because you reckon a random person from who knows where might not grasp the words black and white as synonyms to good or bad or allow/deny like a French or American person would is just being courteous. There's also usually some form of master, meaning leader, primary, etc, in most all cultures, too. It's really only a bad word when paired with slave. Master is like the word gay. If you think gay is a bad word that says more about you than it does anything else.

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  • curfew
    replied
    Originally posted by elldekaa View Post
    On the contrary, whitelist/blacklist terms seem to have everything to do with racism: http://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490
    Good initiative from LLVM community
    The authors are presenting random "evidence" that has nothing to do with racial discrimination, but then conclude that these pieces somehow prove the racist motive. Completely bonkers. Their primary piece of proof seems to be a mere anecdote about the term being coined during the era of "European colonialism", which basically covers the time from Europeans inventing ocean-proof sail ships all through the end of the 19th century. So that alone is completely meaningless. The concept of black and white has been around thousands of years before that and "black list" is merely one addition to the vocabulary of terms derived from the same mythos.

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