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LLVM Developers Plotting Path Forward For Moving To A New Git Branch Name

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  • #11
    Originally posted by skeevy420
    I'm gonna be fucking pissed if we have the call the Dungeon Master something else. Dungeon Leader. Dungeon Person. Dungeon Ruler. None of them really acronym down very well either...
    Dungeon Manager… it would be awesomely wrong given american management doctrine was fed from nazis at the end of world war 2. For some unknown reason Nazi management theorists were free to teach their doctrine about the management of the human material to US elites, like Reinhard Höhn one of the theorist of the Menschen-führung, who established a post-war executive school to freely disseminate into the world the nazi worker alienation practices.
    Last edited by illwieckz; 06-19-2020, 09:22 PM.

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    • #12
      Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by hughw View Post
        Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.
        Or violence would be pure unspoken one, something you can't denounce, discern, or condemn. You would be a true slave but you would not have the word to name it, and if you find the word, you'll be punished to say it.

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        • #14
          On the contrary, whitelist/blacklist terms seem to have everything to do with racism.
          Good initiative from LLVM community
          Last edited by elldekaa; 06-20-2020, 01:55 PM.

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          • #15
            Is there any references to 'slave' in git terminology? (I honestly don't know). If there is, then I think it reasonable to consider 'master' a problematic (even if not necessarily racist) term. If not, than I can't in any good faith have an issue with its usage in the context. (Just as, to use an example above, "Dungeon Master" could really only be an issue if the players are called "Dungeon Slaves", which they aren't!).

            The whole Master-Slave=Racism thing is rather ex-colonial-centric, too, but since we are predominately talking about it in the context of ex-colonial languages like English, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the pro-change argument.

            OTOH, irrespective of etymology, I like allow/deny-list over black/white-list simply on the grounds of clarity of meaning sans cultural context.
            Last edited by Viki Ai; 06-19-2020, 09:25 PM.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by elldekaa View Post
              On the contrary, whitelist/blacklist terms seem to have everything to do with racism: http://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490
              Good initiative from LLVM community
              I had a look, let's take this sentence, for example:

              Such terminology not only reflects racist culture, but also serves to reinforce, legitimize, and perpetuate it. On this issue, it instructive to read comments by Ossie Davis on the use of English as a racial affront:[…]
              Good, you found people who use existing words to justify their “racial affront”, then, when you ban those existing words that preexisted and were unrelated, the bad guy would just use another existing word that preexisted and was unrelated to justify its bad acting. That's not only stupid, that even does not look like an logic acceptable for a paper. Also the sentence said the English language is used by this guy as a racial affront, so the next step is to ban the entirety of the English language (note: English is not my native language so caring or not about this language does not count: it's just stupid).

              And wait… how this have to do in a medical library? This has all the aspects of a scam, the recent The Lancet fiasco must have warned you…
              Last edited by illwieckz; 06-19-2020, 10:47 PM.

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              • #17
                LLVM developers really don't have more important problems to solve than a branch name, because some idiot said that this name is related to racism? It's just a word, without a context there is nothing wrong with any word and in this case we don't have any context related to racism, so what a problem? In near future some color names will be banned because they describe our skin color... What a world...
                Last edited by nadro; 06-19-2020, 10:27 PM.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by dkasak
                  I was sure this would upset some incels, and I can see reading over comments that I was not wrong. Change must be so hard ...
                  Pointless change is hard to accept.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by Viki Ai View Post
                    Is there any references to 'slave' in git terminology? (I honestly don't know). If there is, then I think it reasonable to consider 'master' a problematic (even if not necessarily racist) term. If not, than I can't in any good faith have an issue with its usage in the context. (Just as, to use an example above, "Dungeon Master" could really only be an issue if the players are called "Dungeon Slaves", which they aren't!).

                    The whole Master-Slave=Racism thing is rather ex-colonial-centric, too, but since we are predominately talking about it in the context of ex-colonial languages like English, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the pro-change argument.

                    OTOH, irrespective of etymology, I like allow/deny-list over black/white-list simply on the grounds of clarity of meaning sans cultural context.
                    Your last sentence is basically my stance on the matter. Master, blacklist, and whitelist are all Euro-American terms, regardless of which part of the culture and history we're trying to attribute the meaning towards, so changing Master to Main, blacklist to denylist, and whitelist to allowlist makes sense in regards to clarity and meaning since we'd be replacing cultural terms with actual descriptive terms. I doubt very many of us would disagree to terminology changes based on that line of thinking.

                    You've been playing it wrong if you don't have a safe word and Dungeon Slaves

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

                      Your last sentence is basically my stance on the matter. Master, blacklist, and whitelist are all Euro-American terms, regardless of which part of the culture and history we're trying to attribute the meaning towards, so changing Master to Main, blacklist to denylist, and whitelist to allowlist makes sense in regards to clarity and meaning since we'd be replacing cultural terms with actual descriptive terms. I doubt very many of us would disagree to terminology changes based on that line of thinking.
                      This could make sense to me, assuming that there actually are non Euro-American developers confused by the terminology and not willing to learn it. So far they have learnt at least a bit of English, so I think this is a smaller challenge in comparison.

                      The next step in that direction would be to make localizable programming language keywords, such as "if", "while", "for"... Just because they are in English and discriminate non-English speakers. This happens in Excel formulas, by the way. Variables should be allowed to contain any Unicode character, as happens in python3 if I remember correctly.

                      Try programming using French, Spanish or any second language you have a basic knowledge of, and you will feel how many non-native English speakers feel when they start to program.

                      International communication would be much harder. Code would be harder to share. The cons outweigh the benefits, in my opinion. And then, since we are choosing to stick to English, I don't think it makes sense to drop white-light-good black-dark-bad semantics because they are Euro-American, it's just a detail, and very minor in comparison to learning the basics of a whole language.
                      ​​

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